My MTT Strategies

I have had quite a bit of success in Mtts and have been ask by some CC members to share some of my strategys and thinking regarding MTTs.To read about some of my successes or send congrats,Please post here.

Snow in the forecast


My goal is to have an ongoing thread where i post interesting situations I encounter and how I respond.

I would really like anyone that is involved in any of the situations I describe to please give your perspective, and strategy questions
are welcome,I will answer as best I can.


Most of what I can tell you,you will find in other places here and explained much better than i will be able to!I will answer any questions to the best of my ability,but some of my plays come from experiance and arn't easily learned reading a post

Also getting lucky in MTTs always helps,and to win multiple tourneys in a row takes a little devine intervention imo.It also takes some risk on your part as you can't fold your way to a win.

With that being said,I will share with you my thought process in varying parts of MTTs.

Before I start an MTT, I try to clear enough time to play without distraction,get the dog fed and walked ect.I also try to clear my mind of things outside of poker and focus on what is happening at the table.

When a MTT begins,as we all know the blinds are low in comparison to your chip stack in a normal MTT (im not a fan of Turbos),The blinds often 10/20 with 1500 chips.So you have an M of 50 (all blinds plus antes divided into your total chips).After the 1st few rounds,I will always know my M as well as the M of the others at the table (I know this sounds like a lot to do but when you get use to it,it is not that hard).I have had some people tell me that math isnt important, and I still disagree with them as i am calculating almost constantly during MTT.

Early in Mtts, i like to get in there and see some flops and try to hit a big hand and hopefully double my stack because chips = power.If I have more chips than others than I can control the table to some extent.You have to know the players at the table.The sooner you know how they play,the easier this game gets!If the people that act behind you like to call and see a flop,then i love hands like 67 suited,pocket 3s (to set mine).If you have people that like to raise and reraise,then I will fold these and wait for a better spot.I hate putting chips in a pot voluntarily, then folding (but this skill is necessary at times.)

Poker is a game of constant adjustment to potentially many factors,or sometimes 1 factor is all you need to know to make your decision.An example: I am in the small blind 25/50 for example (all others have folded) and I have 4900 chips and the BB has 400 chips.His chip stack dictates that i put pressure on him by raising with any 2 cards.The worst that can happen (which I am always calculating) is he takes 425 chips from me (complete the blind plus his 400).I have very little to risk and he has his whole tourney at risk if he calls.In this situation my raise will put him all-in.I never mind when they fold, and I love when I suckout on them.I have had 1000's of players leave the table mumbling to themselves "How can he suckout on me with 8 3 off when I have pocket Ks, "He is just Lucky and Stupid" which has many variations and levels of indecency and I enjoy them all with a big ole grin .In this situation it is because the situation dictates that I put pressure on you,this was why I raised and nothing to do with my cards

As the blinds escalate and players start busting,Your M becomes more and more important,as is all the others stacks, and their tendencys.I do not use a HUD,but this can be helpful for picking up other players tendencys.
I learned my style before HUDS were even popular, and I have tried them,but I think my own observations are worth as much as the info I get from HUDS.I have a nice book in my head of the CC regulars and in some spots,it has been critical in some of my wins.

I am going to break this up into a few posts to keep it from being a book.

I will start on Middle tourney Strategy and post soon!

As I said in the beginning ,I will answer all questions to the best of my ability,also Im not going to argue over ANY of my points I make and I will surely say some things that others may not like or believe as we go.I respect your opinion but this is my opinion,thanks!




Snow

Middle stages of a MTT


Through a tourney,I am constantly balancing (for lack of a better word) all the information I have gathered (and prior history with other players) with my hand and their range of hands and the MTT situation that Im in (Chips,Blinds ect).There are so many specifics involved in any situation,so the answer to questions is often "It depends".In general as my M shrinks I look for a place to double up,When I have an M to be patiant,then thats my preferance.If someone bluffs at me alot then ill use that against them when i get an opportunity.

Through the Middle part of the tourney I am trying to put myself in position to win,with the least amount of risk as possible.Sometimes thats folding and sometimes that is pushing your stack in or a bet somewhere inbetween (most of the time).It depends on the rest of the info available.

I read in another thread that you should not watch the leaderboard in the tourney lobby and only worry about your table.I have my lobby up all the time and watch all information on it.I want to know where Im at compared to the leader and who are the people at the top.If I see Pifan,Trigga Los,Chiefer,Savage Penguin.Joe Showdown,ChapelTuno,Dakota-XX ect (there are alot more great players I left out) then im going to make a play soon because I realize the road is tough and im going to need chips.If I see names that i know I have an advantage on,then I will remain patiant and look to exploite the weakness at my table.

My goal is always to be the chip leader going into the final table,but that just isnt realistic and learning short stack play is a must.


Next:Final Table and short handed play




Snow

Final Table and short handed play

Ok,you survived the early donks and that time you shoved with JJ vs KK and caught your J on the river.You arrive to the final table,now what?

Well,you count on your 9 man SNG experiance to carry you to the win!
You mean you havnt been practicing any 9 man SNGS?
Oh Oh!You are at a big disadvantage.

9 man SNGS are the best training ground for final table experiance.You learn to adjust your starting range,bet sizing,ect for the game situation gradually from tight to loose as players bust and blinds rise.

This experiance cannot be replaced,the only way to learn is to get in there and do battle.

For any that think there is a trick or gimmick to winning your fair share of tourneys,you will do better to work on leaks in your game and study to get better

I will post additional ideas as long as the thread has interest and I have something to add.




Snow

Ok 9/24/09

Picked off another tourney WIN today.

It was a classic win imo in the respect that I threaded water until mid tourney and then went on a vicious run,I believe I busted 9 or 10 of the last 11 players in the game and dominated the final table.

A key hand mid tourney,1st position limped and 3rd position raised to 600 from 150 with a stack of 1200 or so.I have pocket Qs which can be a kinda risky hand all-in pre-flop.With an M of 8 (for the raiser) and the blinds the next hand coming, i felt this player was anxious and needed a pot.I dont lay Qs down alot,but a definately do at times.My biggest worry was someone behind me pushing with a bigger pair and I have half my chips in the pot.Everyone folds back to raiser and they called with Js and my hand held up.

As the final table started I had nearly twice the chips as 2nd place and was in good shape to take it down.

A couple of players tried really big bluffs on me and I picked em both off with marginal hands.My gut feelings were right both times.

As we got to 4 players,I was at like 28,000 chips and 2nd around 4000.I played big stack power poker and cleaned the rest out fairly quick.

The last hand I push with AQ when BB had 1/3 rd of their stack in and was commited to play or fold and lose anyway.They turned over Q3,I was in dominant position to win and my hand help up.

I will post later if I think of anything else to add.

I hope you guys enjoy these, and that they help you in thinking about the game.



Snow

Snowmobiler said:

Ok 9/24/09

As we got to 4 players,I was at like 28,000 chips and 2nd around 4000.I played big stack power poker and cleaned the rest out fairly quick.
Snow

Click to expand...

You're making me cry as I finished 3rd being one of the players quickly banished to the rail

I forget what u called with but that 5k river bluff gift sure helped you get in dominating position with 4 to go. Props to you for realizing that I wanted to hold on to 2nd when I had like 4k larrdawg had 2500 and you had an insane lead like 20k. You showed down 26offsuit - still stings me - I folded tenjacksuited in the bb. Maybe you woulda busted me with your meager hand. Regardless, I didn't make 2nd anyway so I should have called. That other play when you were in bb with ten2off and the sb shoved for like 2.5 bb and you hero-called was awesome. I guess pot odds dictated that and some pct of the time tenhigh is ahead of their shoving range so good call.

This tourney would have been a different story if larrdawg's 2500 shove from the bb with his doggone hand of K9 didn't crack my AA with my bb at 200 with 11 left and then at the finalt I lost a big showdown with KK. Larrdawg ends up 2nd using my chips well. Lots of luck involved in these tourneys, but you have proven you got skills that outweigh luck.:joyman:

JoeShowdown said:

You're making me cry as I finished 3rd being one of the players quickly banished to the rail

I forget what u called with but that 5k river bluff gift sure helped you get in dominating position with 4 to go. Props to you for realizing that I wanted to hold on to 2nd when I had like 4k larrdawg had 2500 and you had an insane lead like 20k. You showed down 26offsuit - still stings me - I folded tenjacksuited in the bb. Maybe you woulda busted me with your meager hand. Regardless, I didn't make 2nd anyway so I should have called. That other play when you were in bb with ten2off and the sb shoved for like 2.5 bb and you hero-called was awesome. I guess pot odds dictated that and some pct of the time tenhigh is ahead of their shoving range so good call.

This tourney would have been a different story if larrdawg's 2500 shove from the bb with his doggone hand of K9 didn't crack my AA with my bb at 200 with 11 left and then at the finalt I lost a big showdown with KK. Larrdawg ends up 2nd using my chips well. Lots of luck involved in these tourneys, but you have proven you got skills that outweigh luck.:joyman:

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This is great getting your perspective Joe,

Joe is pointing out a couple of plays I made on slim odds (more likely I lose the hand than win).
When I get a commanding lead at the final table,i look at my stack and the other stacks and calculate how many of the short stacks I can double up without material changing my chances of winning.I felt I could double 3 of the other players and still have plenty of chips to win.
I could gamble with the same person twice in a row and still have plenty of chips to win.
The bubble had just burst and everyone is cashing, and I figured someone would likely push into my Big Blind with blinds of 300/600 and a few hundred in antes.The player on the button opens all-in and the small blind folds.
I have 10-2 off which is at the lower end of my calling range but Im still ahead against 10-15 % of pushes and as long as they are not paired or have a 10 or 2. I am going to be around 30-35% and I needed to call like 4200 chips.Joe was right that it was a pretty sick pot odds call ,but my past experiance has been that when i get on a rush,ride it until it stops.I had cleaned out 5 people in a row,so I called and find out im 60%.My hand held up and put the other players on notice that there wont be any bluffing Snow today.

Thanks again Joe,its helpful to have the other players input like this!



Snow

Ok, would you say AK has a place, when would it be right to shove, or call an all-in?
I know what you mean, with the SnGs

kidkvno1 said:

Ok, would you say AK has a place, when would it be right to shove, or call an all-in?
I know what you mean, with the SnGs

Click to expand...

With AK,I will shove all-in or call all-in when I am feeling pressure to win a Pot to stay alive in a MTT or sng.Any time that I am going to raise a pot and Im not going to fold to a reraise,then I shove with AK.Anytime my M is less than around 10-12 is an automatic shove.My reasoning is,Why let someone flop a set or other monster hand and then get the chips in after the fact.The only hands I don't want to see all-in pre-flop is AA or KK.Any other hands I am fine getting it in with AK.

I think a harder question to answer is, when do you lay down AK in an MTT.I have probably busted more times with AK than any other hand,and it is very difficult to get away from when you flop TPTK (Top Pair/Top Kicker).Knowing your opponant is definately helpful here.What is there range of hands that they raise with pre flop?If they are super tight and only raise pre-flop with AA KK QQ & AK,then you are way behind there range,and you can safely fold to there pre-flop raise.Yes I do fold AK pre-flop sometimes,but only to the tightest players or a big stack that I dont want to tangle with.

I busted in a MTT today with AK.1st position made a raise from 30 chips to 120 (He is a Reg and a good player),My stack was around 1100 and I decided (wrongly) to call and see a flop with my ak.If I don't hit the flop,I could fold and not change my chances of winning much.The flop came K73 w/2 clubs,I feel Im probably ahead most of the time here and want to get extra chips from initial raiser,so I check to him since he normally C-bets,He bet 160 and I call,hoping he puts me on a flush draw or a middle pair.The turn was a 2 (no club) and I check again to induce a bet.He abliges and bets out 280,so Im at a decision point.I either call here and let the last card come off or raise all-in.I decided that likely all the chips are going in by the river,so i reraised all-in in since I had determined I wasn't folding. I decided ,he could have the flush draw,a smaller kicker to a paired K or just be unwilling to back down from his aggression.
I decided to push my last 700 chips in the pot and he insta-calls and turns over a set of 3's.In hindsight I needed to make a big Pre-flop re-raise which I will do sometimes (When they turn over AA or KK,then you kick yourself for not just calling and seeing the flop.This example shows how tricky AK can be to play.

If I am doing really well in an MTT,I dont want to play a giant pot with another aggressive Big Stack,when i can pitch it and wait for a better opportunity.Picking your fights at the poker table in MTTs is an Art and losing your stack with AK will happen alot.


Snow

kidkvno1 said:

Ok, would you say AK has a place, when would it be right to shove, or call an all-in?
I know what you mean, with the SnGs

Click to expand...

My two cents on that one. This is all based on pre-flop shoving unless I specify otherwise:

The power of A/K is that when you shove with it and get called you are still in decent shape against all but A/A and K/K.
When you shove with A/K, better hands (T/T or worse) often fold. So you have decent fold-equity.
Combining the fold equity with the decent chance of winning if you are called by a lower pair makes A/K a powerful semi-bluffing hand.

When you are a big stack and shove with A/K, really short stacks are apt to call with weaker Aces because they are desperate. However, big stacks are going to call with Q/Q, K/K, A/K, and A/A (maybe J/J). That's not a range you typically want to be all-in against.

The early stages of a tournament are about getting chips with minimal risk, and getting all-in with A/K pre-flop has substantial risk as there are a lot of big stacks that you do not want to get all-in against. There are even situations where you'll have to let go of it after flopping top-pair/top-kicker (like, in multi-player pots against 3-bets or check-raises). So basically, A/K is not a stacking hand unless you're up against a loose or especially short player.

If you are a short stack, you need to double-up so go ahead and shove with it to hopefully double up and get you some chips/power to work with.

Similarly, late in a tournament blinds are taking a larger bite into your stack. Greater peril to your stack due to blinds justifies greater risks to get chips. Also, you're looking to get a big stack to get that first place position. First place pays so much more than 3rd. So shoving with A/K is justifiable.

It should be noted that there is a big difference between open-shoving with A/K and 3-bet shoving with A/K. If you're short, again, it's worth risking your neck on the coin flip because you need chips. Besides, if they opened with A/J or A/K they might call anyway because they are priced in. But if you're up against a tight big stack mid-game who 3-bets you or 4-bets you, that's not a situation you want to be in.

- - -
Something to keep in mind: A lot of people misplay A/K and will call with it and fold if they miss the flop. They are going to get an Ace or King on the flop 32% of the time. 2/3 times they will miss and muck. So they're basically turning their coin-flip hand into a hand that will only pay off 1/3 of the time! Not only that, but when they do hit, the Ace and/or King on the board is often a scare cared so they may have trouble getting their opponents chips in.
Early in a tourney this isn't so bad. But when the blinds become significant (compared to stack sizes)... ick. Do not be one of those people. Don't do that to yourself.

As I wrote on your intital thread, I'm really impressed by your approach to MTTs. I've started a "snowbook" to study when I'm offline, which now includes excellent posts here by others too, like Joe's and SPs.

Great playing with you last night Snow, though of course we weren't in a mega tourney.

One quality I noticed in your play is that you are fearless, something I could definitely take some tips on. And that naturally leads to a larger question having to do with the psychology of playing. In my experience, being on my A-game has a lot to do with Attitude in addition to all the other factors. So--what sort, if any, of mental/emotional preparation do you bring to the tables? How do you sustain that energy throughout the duration of MTTs, which can sometimes last what feels like forever?

will come back and read this later, thanks Snow.

LarkMarlow said:

One quality I noticed in your play is that you are fearless, something I could definitely take some tips on.

Click to expand...

Yesterday, when I was talking smack with Maid Marian, I typed out something like, "If you want to beat me you can't be afraid to lose all your chips, because I won't be."

I went back and deleted it, but it fits what you just said.

It's the old "You have to be willing to die in order to live" cliche. A lot of new players don't want to seem foolish so they'll play too tight. They'll get a little farther in the game, but they don't make the big payouts.
Women tend to fall into this category more than men, whereas men are more prone to be too aggressive and shoot themselves in the foot.

A simple way to put it is that if you're in a $7.70 180 player tournament at the final table with 7 left. The number on the right is how much more you'll make by finishing in that place rather than in the previous place.
1 - $378 ~ $126
2 - $252 ~ $102
3 - $150 ~ $49
4 - $101 ~ $19
5 - $82 ~ $19
6 - $63 ~ $19
7 - $44

So with 7 left, everyone is guaranteed $44. Getting knocked out now gets you $0 more. Advancing one place only nets you $19. In fact, it's only $19 for the next three jumps.
But making 3rd is a big jump, and it's even bigger for 2nd, and bigger still for 1st.

Those big jumps are worth taking risks for. The payout outweighs the risk of busting out.

I'm not saying go kamikaze. I'm just saying, if I'm given the choice to fold my way to 4th place or take a coin flip that'll probably guarantee me 2nd (which means I have a good shot at 1st place as well) I'm taking that coin flip and shoving. And when I shove, I hope I'm doing it against someone who is fine with folding their way to 4th.

Great questions LarkMeadow,


Mental/emotional preparation:

Having enough sleep and not starting MTTs to late to be fresh at the final table.This is a major leak and bankroll killer if you do it!

I don't drink alcohol and play poker,My decisions are horrible past a couple of beers.

I keep a calander of the tourneys I intend to play,So for the most part I Have a schedule daily and start each day knowing most of when I will play that day.

I read poker books daily,post and study on CC daily,and think about poker when Im away from the game. (yes im obsessed)

I avoid playing Deep Stack tourneys online,My attention span for playing online is generally 5 hours without at least an hour break.



Your Image at the table:

Your image at the table, will determine in a lot of situations,how others will play you.Having people fearing getting involved with you at the table narrows the range of cards that they will play,thus making it easier to figure out where you are in a paticular situation.

Fearlessness and Foolishness are easily confused.
There is a big differance between someone having a read,and an advantage in a situation and making a strong play,vs unbridled Aggression.One looks like the other in the short term,but over the long term are easily distinguished.

Making great calls,and great laydowns are very important in MTTs,and are very hand specific.I intend to post some of these as I encounter them in tourneys.In general,having people respect/underestimate/fear your play is an advantage for you.

Example:I played a tourney recently and pushed 650 chips (all-in for Big Blind) into an unopened pot.My table image was very aggressive and I was called by kq,I turn over 2 6 off,and went on to win the pot.The very next hand,I raise a normal 3x and the Big Blind pushes a very nice sized stack in.I insta-call since Im sitting with AA and the current nutz.
I win the pot and the tourney.In the tourney chat the player put "I thought you were full of crap when you raised".I said "Thats the best part of showing down 6 2 off".They went on to say "I guess Ill never be good then".I chuckled because they are right in a sense that the 1 hand might not be the perfect play,But I had little risk in the 2 6 hand, and cleaned up with my powerful hand due to my image.This plays out in a variety of ways and I intend to post more examples as I can.



Snow

LarkMarlow said:

As I wrote on your intital thread, I'm really impressed by your approach to MTTs. I've started a "snowbook" to study when I'm offline, which now includes excellent posts here by others too, like Joe's and SPs.

Great playing with you last night Snow, though of course we weren't in a mega tourney.

One quality I noticed in your play is that you are fearless, something I could definitely take some tips on. And that naturally leads to a larger question having to do with the psychology of playing. In my experience, being on my A-game has a lot to do with Attitude in addition to all the other factors. So--what sort, if any, of mental/emotional preparation do you bring to the tables? How do you sustain that energy throughout the duration of MTTs, which can sometimes last what feels like forever?

Click to expand...

thanks to snowmobiler for sharing his valuable knowledge.
I wont be suprised if the "record of big wins!" thread becomes much more active after this

There's a great post by Shaun Deeb on two plus two on MTT strategies. It goes into detail on attitude per level and how many chips you should have per level to be competitive.

Great thread snow!!!

Lots of good information and tips.

Do you play more than one tourney at a time?

Great thread snow and some great points and reminders to all. It's easy to sit back and tell a bad beat about the crazy donk that cracked your KK with his bs 62 os hand but a whole 'nother thing altogether to sit back and think it through logically that the chip leader pushed into the ss, ran into a big hand and even if he had lost he could afford it and keeping the pressure up was the right thing to do.

Lot of people that still can not distinguish the difference and you've made great examples here differentiating between them.

TriggaLos said:

Great thread snow!!!

Lots of good information and tips.

Do you play more than one tourney at a time?

Click to expand...

Im going to expand the question a bit and give my history and general opinion about multi-tabling.

1st-If you are losing at 1 table,do not play more than 1 until you figure out a way to win consistantly.

My History regarding multi-tabling (MT) started almost from the beginning of my playing online poker,playing SNGs . As soon as I was playing 1 table I was figuring out how to play 2, and soon I was.I played 2 tables for about a year, and went to 4 for a while.Eventually I played as many as 18 or 20 (can't remember which) and eventually settled on 12 being my optimium amount I could play,to keep the highest win rate possible.

Through about 1.5 years,I averaged making about $1 per sng,playing 9 man $5.50,and this included bonus and FPPs (over half played on poker stars)

The experiance I gained was very important to my improvement as a player.Once I felt like I wasnt getting better, it became boring and the profit wasn't worth it.I swapped to MTT and Became a Cardschat member within 6 months or so and have played MTTs since.

My strategy now is, the bigger the value of the tournament,the less tables I play.I will play up to 3 Cheap MTTs,but when 1st prize is over maybe $100 , and if there are not a ton of players,I will mostly play 1 or 2 now.


Snow

Thanks for posting some of your strategy/thought processes behind your success Snow. Good stuff, look forward to reading some more analysis of different situations that arise...if I happen to be at your table in a CC game, I'll make note of any interesting hands to ask you about.

Yea - good thread. Even though I helped you with starting it I just now had time to read it lol.

Should be some good on-going discussions here.

Great thread Snow

I appreciate your taking the time to give us some insights into your thought process. There's plenty of book knowledge out there for all of us to read & study on, but to get practical thoughts & ideas from someone you play with on a daily basis can only help to improve our games as well.

Keep up the good work :top:

Thanks

I've been waiting for something like this, tried starting one earlier but it fell flat... think I was too whiney .

Anyway, this is great stuff Snow et. al., and your thoughts confirm a lot of my observations hanging in the shallow end of the MTT pool. I have been trying to find similarities in play among leaderboard toppers the past coupla years, here and elsewhere, and I think your comments reflect what top players exhibit (though they rarely discuss their strategies -- this thread in invaluable then).

I won't mention names but these playahs don't stay number one for more than a year usually; I think the grind gets to them (gotta play em all and more to top a leaderboard!) and someone else moves up...

That said, here are two points you make which are common among these leaders:

"Also getting lucky in MTTs always helps,and to win multiple tourneys in a row takes a little devine intervention imo.It also takes some risk on your part as you can't fold your way to a win."


I see a lot of early 'go big or go home' play among leaders, not being afraid to get in as underdog in the right circumstances (some you outlined above), in hopes of taking an early lead. Once consolidated, they can then sit back and play more selectively...


"If I am doing really well in an MTT,I dont want to play a giant pot with another aggressive Big Stack,when i can pitch it and wait for a better opportunity.Picking your fights at the poker table in MTTs is an Art and losing your stack with AK will happen alot."


Exactly, most of your posts are really about how to pick your spot for a big move. This is something I was missing but am getting it now -- have made the right moves recently, at the wrong time, and it cost me ITM or FT or top spot (getting tired or bored and making mistakes in late stages)... this is what I am working on now, and yr suggestion re SNGs was a great reminder, will get back to grinding those a bit, watching the stacks, places, payouts, and other factors, really an informal Independent Chip Model (ICM), which is another more rarefied (math-intensive) 'system' of its own.


Another note re image: MTTs at CC also play like cash games, in that you can always be back on the next bus if u bust (like a rebuy) and you get to know players over time as in a regular cash game. I took some big risks at the wrong time, but I know it left some people wondering, is this guy stupid or fearless? Or both? I will keep youse all posted on that he he he...


Good luck and cya at some more FTs!

great post snow lotsa of good advise for the novice and the experienced will help us all i am sure.

also want to add one thing when you are on a great run like snow is alot of things work well.

also when you are on a bad run nothing you do works well.

so dont get discouraged if you try these strategies and they dont always work the times they do will always pay for the times they dont.


biggest advise dont blind out or down so low you might as well be out.

again great post snow,

I'm heading out to my local riverboats for a few days and I'm going to take my "snowbook" along, mainly because I'll be playing in a freeroll or two where insanity generally reigns supreme . Live freerolls are pretty rare in these parts but when they happen people who have never been seen before suddenly appear. Though the max number of entrants is rarely more than 80, they actually feel like online mega MTTs to me. Hopefully, armed with a secret Snow weapon, I'll manage to cash .