MTT - shove A8o UTG 7bb

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LuckedOut

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Hi everyone, I am new to MTTs and managed to get lucky a few times in this tournament and finished 19th out of 6335 people. Just wondering if anyone could tell me if this was the correct play, or should I have waited for a better spot? The pressure was starting to get to me at this point.

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T40,000/T80,000
Buy-in: $1.00+$0.25+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit
pokerstars
7 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com - Mac OS X hand history analysis and tracking

Stacks:
UTG - Hero (T593,890)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (T2,385,406)
MP - MP (T1,194,448)
CO - CO (T1,403,784)
BTN - BTN (T494,296)
SB - SB (T744,903)
BB - BB (T481,596)

Preflop: (T176,000, 7 players) Hero is UTG with Ah 8c
Hero raises to T585,890 (all-in), UTG+1 raises to T2,377,406 (all-in), 5 folds, Uncalled bet of T1,791,516 returned to UTG+1

Flop: 4c Qd 5s (T1,347,780, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T0, UTG+1: T1,791,516)

Turn: 7s (T1,347,780, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T0, UTG+1: T1,791,516)

River: Jd (T1,347,780, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T0, UTG+1: T1,791,516)

Total Pot: T1,347,780
Hero shows Ah 8c (high card Ace)
UTG+1 shows Kd Ks (a pair of Kings)

UTG+1 wins T1,347,780
 
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Weissr

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IMO I think the shove there is just fine. I would rather be shoving A8o than calling with it; and after the blinds roll through you'll be left with a mid 400k stack and likely have to be shoving/calling off with a worse hand than A8 and a much shorter chip stack if you do double up.
 
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LuckedOut

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Thanks for your input, I was feeling pretty deflated after getting so far and being knocked out with A8o but I guess this is just the nature of these big tournaments.
 
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cotta777

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Given how deep you were I think you should of waited, your getting called by higher aces and pairs at an optimal table so best case scenario you gain 2 blinds if everyone folds

which you can do at a higher success rate from on the button or on the hi-jack.
if you really want to go all in your equity is far better in late position..

even if you do get called with like a broadway hand or low suited connecters you still have about 40% chance when you are called of doubling up.

Essentially aswell 93,000 is alot! it easilly becomes 350k and then one more big hand 800k . and you within reach of becoming a chip leader.
its far from over deffo fold :) UTG , in late ofcourse pushing is fine
 
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Weissr

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Given how deep you were I think you should of waited, your getting called by higher aces and pairs at an optimal table so best case scenario you gain 2 blinds if everyone folds

I agree with what you're saying but you have to look at the situation. There's 19 plrs left and the bigger money doesn't start until the final table so the field still needs to be cut in half and your current stack is not even close to enough to get you there. There are only 7 players at the table so it is considerably shorter than full ring with less people for your shove to get through. He currently has 593k so winning the pot preflop of 176k adds almost 30% to his stack which is pretty considerable. And if he does get called, he has almost 30% equity to win the against everything except AA.

If Called : say his equity is 26.5% (somewhere in the middle of the calling range)
his ev is = 0.265(593k+176k) - 0.735(593k) = 204k - 436k = -232k
If no Callers : his ev is = +176k

Considering the size of his stack compared to others at the table, he currently has a decent amount of fold equity if he shoves. To make it a breakeven play given the assumptions, you need to get folds preflop 57% of the time. This assumes that no one is ever calling with anything worse than a better Ax or pair above 88 which I doubt is zero. Now this may not seem great, but I can see him getting folds on the shove a little over half the time as being more than reasonable.

which you can do at a higher success rate from on the button or on the hi-jack.
if you really want to go all in your equity is far better in late position..

The problem is if he waits until the blinds go through him his stack size will drop significantly giving him much less fold equity from a shove. And being in late position there is a good chance that someone will open the pot before him which will give him almost zero fold equity if he shoves. This takes away his ability to pick up the pot preflop and he's now relying purely on the equity he has being all in. And that is even IF he can manage to pick up a decent hand to get it in with.

Obviously my analysis is not super extensive, but I have been in similar situations several times and it seems that the majority of the time you end up having to get it in a few hands later anyways with a worse hand and fewer chips than you previously had.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I agree with what you're saying but you have to look at the situation. There's 19 plrs left and the bigger money doesn't start until the final table so the field still needs to be cut in half and your current stack is not even close to enough to get you there. There are only 7 players at the table so it is considerably shorter than full ring with less people for your shove to get through. He currently has 593k so winning the pot preflop of 176k adds almost 30% to his stack which is pretty considerable. And if he does get called, he has almost 30% equity to win the against everything except AA.

If Called : say his equity is 26.5% (somewhere in the middle of the calling range)
his ev is = 0.265(593k+176k) - 0.735(593k) = 204k - 436k = -232k
If no Callers : his ev is = +176k

Considering the size of his stack compared to others at the table, he currently has a decent amount of fold equity if he shoves. To make it a breakeven play given the assumptions, you need to get folds preflop 57% of the time. This assumes that no one is ever calling with anything worse than a better Ax or pair above 88 which I doubt is zero. Now this may not seem great, but I can see him getting folds on the shove a little over half the time as being more than reasonable.



The problem is if he waits until the blinds go through him his stack size will drop significantly giving him much less fold equity from a shove. And being in late position there is a good chance that someone will open the pot before him which will give him almost zero fold equity if he shoves. This takes away his ability to pick up the pot preflop and he's now relying purely on the equity he has being all in. And that is even IF he can manage to pick up a decent hand to get it in with.

Obviously my analysis is not super extensive, but I have been in similar situations several times and it seems that the majority of the time you end up having to get it in a few hands later anyways with a worse hand and fewer chips than you previously had.

very nice analysis. I totally agree.

I think the A8o is a marginal but reasonable shove. For instance, I think AT would be an easy shove given the total situation.

blinds are so high and you're short stacked and short handed.

When you've been at the table a while it is easier to "feel" the rhythm but frequently when blinds are so high the late position players don't get a chance to play anything but premium cards...position becomes almost a disadvantage when it's a short stacked preflop battle for the expensive blinds...

As it turns out the villain woke up with the 2nd best hand and you still had 30% equity against him. not too bad of a match up given your stack size and tournament stage.
 
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rumsey182

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Given how deep you were I think you should of waited, your getting called by higher aces and pairs at an optimal table so best case scenario you gain 2 blinds if everyone folds

which you can do at a higher success rate from on the button or on the hi-jack.
if you really want to go all in your equity is far better in late position..

even if you do get called with like a broadway hand or low suited connecters you still have about 40% chance when you are called of doubling up.

Essentially aswell 93,000 is alot! it easilly becomes 350k and then one more big hand 800k . and you within reach of becoming a chip leader.
its far from over deffo fold :) UTG , in late ofcourse pushing is fine
i don't have my push fold chart in front of me but this is an un-exploitable shove and is an auto shove i would suggest you have a range of something like this as an open shoving range here:
(this is a guess that i spent like 2 seconds on so ill update when i look at the chart tomorrow)

give or take this: 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o

it may be a touch tighter but this seems about correct

helps that the blinds are so short actually should increase FE a little

this is all assuming no weird pay out jumps are happening
 
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LuckedOut

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Thanks for all this analysis, it is good to know it wasn't a bad move although marginal. I didn't want to get blinded out and it was a turbo tournament as well.

Rumsey182, is that the Nash equilibrium chart you're using or a different one?
 
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cotta777

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I agree with what you're saying but you have to look at the situation. There's 19 plrs left and the bigger money doesn't start until the final table so the field still needs to be cut in half and your current stack is not even close to enough to get you there. There are only 7 players at the table so it is considerably shorter than full ring with less people for your shove to get through. He currently has 593k so winning the pot preflop of 176k adds almost 30% to his stack which is pretty considerable. And if he does get called, he has almost 30% equity to win the against everything except AA.

If Called : say his equity is 26.5% (somewhere in the middle of the calling range)
his ev is = 0.265(593k+176k) - 0.735(593k) = 204k - 436k = -232k
If no Callers : his ev is = +176k

Considering the size of his stack compared to others at the table, he currently has a decent amount of fold equity if he shoves. To make it a breakeven play given the assumptions, you need to get folds preflop 57% of the time. This assumes that no one is ever calling with anything worse than a better Ax or pair above 88 which I doubt is zero. Now this may not seem great, but I can see him getting folds on the shove a little over half the time as being more than reasonable.



The problem is if he waits until the blinds go through him his stack size will drop significantly giving him much less fold equity from a shove. And being in late position there is a good chance that someone will open the pot before him which will give him almost zero fold equity if he shoves. This takes away his ability to pick up the pot preflop and he's now relying purely on the equity he has being all in. And that is even IF he can manage to pick up a decent hand to get it in with.

Obviously my analysis is not super extensive, but I have been in similar situations several times and it seems that the majority of the time you end up having to get it in a few hands later anyways with a worse hand and fewer chips than you previously had.


I suppose when you put it like that it isn't so bad 7 players at the table aswell
their is absoloutely no harm in taking that spot we will have to get lucky to win the tournament anyway from a small stack and we do hold the risk of not getting a hand.

I personally might of waited if under the gun but it would depend on my table ofcourse, as we are opening with A8 we do have more equity than calling off.
Some of the time it would of worked out for OP
all I would add is in future assess the table dynamics before 100% deciding how to play your hands but the majority would go with the shove
 
spiderman637

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What i think is with just 7BBs ur shove with A8 offsuit is very much justified..Infact well played. Letting those cards off would have been very wrong there...
Good game finishing so good !!!
 
Arjonius

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I'm shoving unless I have table-specific reasons not to. I have 7.5bb, there are antes which reduces the stack to pot ratio compared to no antes. I'll also be forced to pay the blinds in the next two hands, there's also a pretty fair chance both those hands will be worse than A8o, and while it may not take very many hands before I'll be dealt something better, it's unlikely I'll get a premium hand any time soon. So the most likely scenario if I fold here is that I'll end up getting it in reasonably soon with a slightly better range, but with less fold equity since my stack will be smaller, or with no fold equity if I get it in by calling.

Frankly, I'd have started looking fo spots to open-shove well before I got down to 7.5bb, although with a stronger range while I had more chips.
 
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LuckedOut

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What i think is with just 7BBs ur shove with A8 offsuit is very much justified..Infact well played. Letting those cards off would have been very wrong there...
Good game finishing so good !!!

I managed to finish 5th in another large MTT today, using some of the advice from this thread, so thank you all. :)
 
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rumsey182

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Thanks for all this analysis, it is good to know it wasn't a bad move although marginal. I didn't want to get blinded out and it was a turbo tournament as well.

Rumsey182, is that the Nash equilibrium chart you're using or a different one?

hey sorry at parents house for thanksgiving still not in front of it but yes that will basically give you a push fold chart for simple chip EV or CEV, software programs can tweak that using ICM for the payouts and give you a good suggestion as well like sngwizard and others

a simple push fold chart should do

here is some starting points:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-opponent-heads-up-sage-nash-chubukov-560408/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/23/small-stakes-mtt/note-hu-play-t180s-1069110/
 
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LuckedOut

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hey sorry at parents house for thanksgiving still not in front of it but yes that will basically give you a push fold chart for simple chip EV or CEV, software programs can tweak that using ICM for the payouts and give you a good suggestion as well like sngwizard and others

a simple push fold chart should do

here is some starting points:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-opponent-heads-up-sage-nash-chubukov-560408/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/23/small-stakes-mtt/note-hu-play-t180s-1069110/

Thanks good stuff :)
 
spiderman637

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I managed to finish 5th in another large MTT today, using some of the advice from this thread, so thank you all. :)
Thats really impressive dude...
Keep up the good game !!!
 
PrayForSpades

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Pushing UTG with A8o = getting called by A10-AK 60% of the time imo.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Pushing UTG with A8o = getting called by A10-AK 60% of the time imo.

yeah, I agree. He is running out of options though.

Assuming he gets called by a better ace 60% of the time (seems roughly correct) He'll still win those 25% of the time so = 15% equity

He'll get called by other hands where he is ahead a small amount of the time (like KQs etc) and he'll be about 60% to win so maybe another 10% equity

he'll get called by pocket pairs where he just has 1 over a small amount of the time and he'll be about 30% to win those so maybe another 5% equity

He'll get called by small pocket pairs where he has 2 overs a small amount of the time and he'll win those 50% of the time.....so another 5% equity

A bunch of times he'll just win the blinds so maybe 15% of the time he survives that way....and when you add it all together, it adds up to nearly a 50% chance of surviving, sometimes by just winning the blinds, and sometimes doubling up. That seems better than paying the blinds with a random hand next 2 hands and having smaller stack with even less fold equity when he finally picks up a hand....

(obviously all my math there was really rough....)
 
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