MTT hands question

fletchdad

fletchdad

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Im new to CC, and am not real sure where to find this info. I am fairly new to online poker, about 6 months and 2 months real serious playing - and learning the hard way$$$...lol- and diligently read, study, analyze my game and so on. Most MTT advice I read suggests starting off tight, folding broadway hands and Ax suited or not (excepting AQ AK) in EP, but limping with suited connectors or small pair. The reality of MTT early stage is many stay in with the strangest hands.I see showdowns with Pockets like A3 os, 5-J and on and on and on. Where can I find threads about what hands to keep, how much to call with low pair, stuff like that. I do ok in the tourneys, but fold lots of say K-5 suited like that when the blinds are small, cause its advised to do so, but I seemed to do better when I would call the blinds to see the flop, it seems to me I was advancing better with this so-called "bad MTT strategy". I just would like to hear others experiences and opinions of this kind of play.

And I would also like to find forums on how to approach SNGs, MTTs and cash games, and where the differences are.
Thanks
 
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Would you like a 50page answer or 50word (lol).

Here's a short answer to one of your questions..... it is profitable to call a raise with a low pp as long as effective stacks are 15x deeper than the size of the raise & you're fairly confident that you're closing out the action preflop. This is a very concise answer but at least its something for ya.
 
SavagePenguin

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I... fold lots of say K-5 suited like that when the blinds are small, cause its advised to do so, but I seemed to do better when I would call the blinds to see the flop, it seems to me I was advancing better with this so-called "bad MTT strategy".

The problem with K/5s and stuff is when you play it and the flop is K/T/2 rianbow. What do you do with your top pair? Most people who call with a King have a better kicker than a 5, so how confident can you be in your hand? If they don't have a King you win a small pot, but if they have a King with a bigger kicker you lose a lot more chips.

If you think that you'd be better off playing junk, you're probably biased in how you see the hands. It's easy to ignore all of the times that your hand didn't connect, but then exclaim "I should have played that!" when your hand would have flopped two pair.

Your K/5 sees a K/5/x only 2% of the time! (48.5, to 1) Even then, the guy who calls with K/J will still beat you something like 15% of the time when the X and/or the turn and river pair to counterfeit your two pair and give him the bigger kicker.

I see people play junk and get big stacks all the time. But if you look them up on OPR or sharkscope (only do this after you play, when your poker software has closed), very rarely will they be winning players. When you get a lot of people playing junk, one will get lucky and take the chips from the others to get a big stack. This person looks like a genius, when really he's just the luckiest fish.
 
fletchdad

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The problem with K/5s and stuff is when you play it and the flop is K/T/2 rianbow. What do you do with your top pair? Most people who call with a King have a better kicker than a 5, so how confident can you be in your hand? If they don't have a King you win a small pot, but if they have a King with a bigger kicker you lose a lot more chips.

If you think that you'd be better off playing junk, you're probably biased in how you see the hands. It's easy to ignore all of the times that your hand didn't connect, but then exclaim "I should have played that!" when your hand would have flopped two pair.

Your K/5 sees a K/5/x only 2% of the time! (48.5, to 1) Even then, the guy who calls with K/J will still beat you something like 15% of the time when the X and/or the turn and river pair to counterfeit your two pair and give him the bigger kicker.

I see people play junk and get big stacks all the time. But if you look them up on OPR or Sharkscope (only do this after you play, when your poker software has closed), very rarely will they be winning players. When you get a lot of people playing junk, one will get lucky and take the chips from the others to get a big stack. This person looks like a genius, when really he's just the luckiest fish.


Hey Savage,

thanx for your post. I hear what u r saying, and agree. I was just wondering, kind of a "when in Rome" sort of thing. In these low stake MTTS, so many see the flop, and at beginning stage it is cheap to see the flop. I guess I am just wondering how profitable it could be, like on K-5 suit, if the flush comes up, is it worth 1x bb in beg. stage where it is cheap, to do that kind of gambling. If my K comes, I know I am in a bad position, unless I get a table full of checks (check raise not a big fish move, of course then a defo fold) Im just wondering at the % of seen flops vs. made hands in low blind situations. I do throw the junk away depending on position, but since the investment is relatively low at the starting stages, and real poker isnt being played anyway, buncha maniacs calling everything, if it doesnt pay off with a only slightly promising pocket to call the BB to see where the flop is going. I mean, 5 called hands at the start are not gonna break my BR, and I have seen so many donk hands stay in, and just got to wondering if there isnt a way to increase stack size with minimum investment. I am still throwing the trash away, just kinda thinking aloud on this one. Win equity vs. original investment, like can it go the same way playing smart does, meaning, I throw the trash away, end up having to push with next to nothing cause i get no nutz the whole game......
Maybe I need to keep playing the "right" way and just deal with varying playing styles that are unavoidable at my stake levels.
dont know sharkscope or OPR will check em out tho.
thx again
 
brank

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what savage penguin says is right on.

also, if your playin the micro MTTs(as i do) then it seems like 2/3 of the table are ATCs(any two cards) and then others are maybe ok players that might be paying attention. the ATCs will not be payin attention, they only look at their cards and will call u down even if they only have bottom pair, so you take them to value town. the ones payin attention will assume u are an ATC and play u as such.

sometime u can be at a table for a really long time so i think its good to build some table cred with the ok players and be able to bluff them and take the ATCs money(as they call most any raise) when u hit good on the flop. callin 3 times with a crap hand like K5s amounts to a raise preflop. play the player types accordingly and u should see results. aggression wins in poker, more so in the later parts when most donks are gone and u have good table cred so u can steal the blinds to stay alive till u get some decent hands.
 
SavagePenguin

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...like on K-5 suit, if the flush comes up, is it worth 1x bb in beg.

With K/5s you will flop a flush once out of ever 119 hands.
You flop a flush draw only once out of ever 9 hands, and just because you hit the draw doesn't mean you'll hit it by the river. And people like to play A/Xs as well, so hitting your K high flush could be fatal for you.

If it is not likely that people will raise after you (IE, you are in late position) and you have pay off wizards at the table, then yeah you can play those cheap hands. But really, with 15/30 blinds and a 1,500 stack you only have 50 big blinds. You have to be really sure that they'll pay you off.

Small pairs hit sets about once every 8 flops. They're hidden a lot better than straights or flushes, so getting paid off is a bit easier.

dont know sharkscope or OPR will check em out tho.
thx again
OPR is OfficialPokerRankings. About 2/3 of players are losing players, so right around and OPRscore of 66% is where you see the dividing line between winning and losing players. My SN is SavagePenguin BTW.
 
SavagePenguin

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If you limp 10 times with your paint/x suited hands, that's 300. 300 out of your 1,500 stack is a significant loss in power.

When playing junk and you hit, people are less likely to pay you off as what helps you often doesn't help them. So you win a small pot.
Whereas with A/K if you hit an Ace high flop, the guys with inferior aces are going to be willing to fork over a lot more chips.

When you play junk, it's really easy to be dominated, so it's difficult to know how to play post flop. Top pair with no kicker is trouble. You want *them* to be the one with kicker problems.
 
fletchdad

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ty 2 thebrank and SavagePenguin
Point well made. I am just feeling my way along as a relatively new online player. I jot down notes and ideas while playing, and it did frequently happen that the any two card players were often going in with such crap that it made me wonder if playing style should be adjusted to accompany the potential pension funders...lol. But I believe u r right. I will continue to let position, pocket and players be my main considerations on how to proceed pre-flop. ty 4 feedback.
 
SavagePenguin

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:)

Another thing to note is that by the time you lose that 300 by limping in ten times, the blinds will go up to 20/40. So now your 1,200 stack is 30 big blinds, which is quite a different than your original 50 big blinds.

But you seem to be convinced. :)

Basically, you want easy decisions. Let the other guy worry about kicker issues and such.
Once you have a better feel for the game you can step out of the tight/aggressive style, but it's going to be swingier (lot of downs, with occasional big stores). But in the meantime, just play tight and take the chips from the people who are in too many pots and making calls that they shouldn't.
 
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if you just call when 3 or 4 players call you dont know where youer at with k 5 and the flop comes k 10 j and another player jumps in with a 3x bb bet you dont know where you stand. better to fold or raise. if you fold no more prb. if you raise you have more info.
 
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