MTT end game considerations

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Caesura

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Yesterday I played the $1 buy-in $1000 guaranteed tournament on 888 and finished 18th (out of 600odd players) and won $3.89. This is ok but I would like your thoughts on how it ended.

I was able to build a chip stack early enough to easily get through the bubble of 90 players. I didn't risk my chips and just played a tight game as I had blown a few good stacks near the bubble in recent cheap tournies and freerolls and just wanted to keep my discipline and get ITM for a change. Luckily I was able to double a few dwindling stacks and progressed through the prizes.

The prize structure was very top heavy over $100 for 1st place but 60-90 place was about $1.80.
The prize went up slowly, $1.80, $2.10, $2.40, $2.70 (approx) for the next 40 places, then players 16-18 won $3.89 which I thought I would aim for.
To achieve this I just let myself be blinded away. Round about 9bb I was dealt 77 and folded. I was going to shove, but an earlier raiser did so I folded. As it turns out I would have trebled my stack. If I had lost the hand I would have finished about 25th and not at my target of 18.
I was the lowest player for some time and players above me crashed out and I reached 18th place with about 3bb left. Then I was dealt 77 again, shoved had 2 callers and lost. I had just played my blind and could have survived about 5 more antes.
15th place paid $5.05.
With players dropping rapidly should I have just hung on and let my chips bleed or followed ICM and played that hand? (I suppose if I had followed ICM initially I would have won with those earlier7s. Just realised this as wrote out the above question.)
 
Debi

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Should have shoved it then and the 1st time too. What were the blind levels and the antes?

Unlike some tournament players who will say always play for top 3 from the start of the tournament (which I am okay with ofc) - I am also okay with having a few reasonable smaller goals within the tournament - if you know what you are doing there - and most don't lol.

For some players I think it is reasonable to have an initial goal of itm. But I am definitely not a fan of playing towards that goal until you are literally within reach of it - even then you can't do stupid things like folding premium hands just to get there.

I don't like your goal to get to top 18 at all. Once you are itm the next goal has to be at least the final table - with a reasonable stack though. And after that top 3 - then winning.

You made a big mistake folding that 77 because of your goal of top 18.

Never fold a hand like that short-stacked just to reach one of your goals - otherwise ditch the goals.
 
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Caesura

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It does sound weak having a goal of 18th I agree but that wasn't my intention from the start, it just seemed the better option between winning $2.40 and $3.89 by just sitting tight. At this point my range was QQ AQ KK AK AA. Maybe AJ
Previously I had sat through 2 hours+ of freeroll and gone out 2 places before the bubble with A9s, needing any club to make my flush on a board 67A and shoving against a double ended straight draw who called with 89o and won when a ten hit on the turn. To be fair I don't think ICM was a consideration and I just wanted to double up and get further ITM, took the risk and lost.
In poker it takes a while for the "correct" play to work out sometimes so that it initially seems like a losing play and gets abandoned before variance has a chance to be corrected I suppose.
 
KingCurtis

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I think the main concern is not worrying about just making the money even though this was your goal for this tournament. If you are trying to become a better player and want to build a nice bank roll in order to move up in limits then your goal should be to start getting aggressive and stop being so tight just to make double or triple your buy-in.

Unless your bankroll is extremely small and you cannot afford to play this way, then you should be constantly striving to make top 3 every time you play. Think about all the other players playing like you and how much you can take advantage of them. Think about how you play when your tight and utilize your experience to become the guy on the other side of the hand constantly winning pots to build a stack and go deeper!
 
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For me in a MTT I dont want to be really short.. if people are sitting on 30-40+ bb and I'm sitting on 10-12 BB, I start to be really aggressive when I can.. you don't wanna get too short in a MTT late game.. you are relying heavily on chance as you havn't got a stack to shove fishes off Arag, q10 and such, this is refering to micros, higher limits I'm guess may have lesser fish.. but I aim for big pay out or go out swinging.. I never aim to min cash.
 
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dan abnormal

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BAM this thread is gold, Keep this one alive ive noticed since I keep saying I aint going for the small money, Im not making any money LOL. This is both live and online so I know IM hitting the same brick walls that I gotta start getting some things straight. EVERYONE KEEP POSTING HERE, I keep running into problems like when I need to shove someone beats me to it and then IM like Im not sure if this is a good spot, or if the big stacks keep the pressure on every hand. I just think when I do push Im pushing the wrong hands.
 
duggs

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dont play tournaments if this is your attitude,
 
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doomasiggy

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To achieve this I just let myself be blinded away.

This is bad. Knowing how to shove/fold is how we reach the ft and make real money. I get that you want to cash, and cashing is nice, but getting 1st 2nd or 3rd is much, much, much nicer. + first is usually a couple hundred x more than 18th or whatever. To take an example, a 1.10 mtt I played the other day had a 1st place cash of $600 and a 10th place cash of $20.

Play to win, settle for a cash. Anything else is bad unless you sattied in and a low cash is significant (i.e. sattied into the sunday million for FPP's and a mincash will double your BR).
 
nc_royals

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I understand the ITM goal. But once you're there then I believe youre next goal is at least final table. There's just not enough of a jump until then. One move to look for is when you approach 20BBs is to look for the one raising alot and when he does come over the top with your allin. Youre likely to collect SB, BB and his raise. Even if he calls then you already have him pegged for raising alot so his range might be very wide.
 
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What would be the blind level then to open the range? 20? or before? At 9 player tables you cant shove QTo with 25 blinds and not just give yourself over to luck, or is it exactly that? If the top prize is 100x the buy-in is it reasonable to donk and if you win 1 tournament in 60 attempts consider yourself a good player? I have won quite a few micro 60 player tournaments and there's definitely been elements of luck involved but haven't studied the format so not sure on what the general consensus is
 
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Loonbat

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I have to echo the majority of the thoughts here, so my sentiments are not new to this thread. I will, however, put my thoughts in my own words :)

The first thing to realize that is if you are playing to cash (as a general rule), you are playing to lose. Let's assume that you min-cash a high percent of your events - 30% for example sake - you will be a losing player. Nearly all structures are exceedingly top heavy and it takes a small % of top 3 finishes to make you a winning player overall. You need to be playing for the win ... if min-cashing is your primary concern, you need to be playing smaller events as your bankroll is not sufficient to support your buyins.

The second thing is that with this crazy game, it is far better to err on the side of aggression than it is on the side of passivity. I too am more inclined to believe "tight is right", but this is certainly the early stages of many MTTs and my stacksize will still dictate when I have to kick my aggression level up. I will NOT be folding many mid-sized pairs under 12 blinds unless something extreme happens.
 
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Cheers,

I've got this one:

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winning-Poker-Tournaments-Hand-Volume/dp/0974150274"]Winning Poker Tournaments One Hand at a Time Volume 1: Amazon.co.uk: Eric ""Rizen"" Lynch: Books[/ame]

I find these books hard to take in though. Must give it another go.
 
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paymefoolsfool

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I never play just to cash always to win after all there is no trophy for 2nd and I think if playing to win is what your used to when you do make the final table it is that much easier to do
 
Poker Orifice

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Cheers,

I've got this one:

Winning Poker Tournaments One Hand at a Time Volume 1: Amazon.co.uk: Eric ""Rizen"" Lynch: Books

I find these books hard to take in though. Must give it another go.

This is a great book 'but' you really should read the Harrinton On Holdem series prior to reading it. From reading your initial post in this thread & your comment about 'hard to take in', you're really not there yet & need to focus on the basic fundamentals of NLHE Tournament play.
Get Harrington On Holdem Vol. 1 & Vol.2 (Tournament play). You will like them both & find them extremely helpful.

In the 'longrun', you will only cash maybe 20% of the time (it's generally slightly higher in micros.. ie. 20-25% in MTT's, med. - higher buyins, good players are ITM 12-15% range). You have to be shooting for higher payouts in these because just attempting to get into the money will be a losing proposition in the longrun.
Also, instead of setting yourself short term goals of making it to certain players left in tourney, play your game much more based upon your stack size & how that relates to the size of the blinds!!! (< this is crucial!!).
Also, ignore how your stack rates vs. 'average stack size' as this is useless info. for the most part & shouldn't be affecting how we play (contrary to what many might think). Stack sizes is key. Learn how to play on diff. stack sizes while deep into a tourney (also always keeping in mind the size of the stacks (in relation to the blinds) of the other players on your table).
 
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This is a great book 'but' you really should read the Harrinton On Holdem series prior to reading it. From reading your initial post in this thread & your comment about 'hard to take in', you're really not there yet & need to focus on the basic fundamentals of NLHE Tournament play.
Get Harrington On Holdem Vol. 1 & Vol.2 (Tournament play). You will like them both & find them extremely helpful.

In the 'longrun', you will only cash maybe 20% of the time (it's generally slightly higher in micros.. ie. 20-25% in MTT's, med. - higher buyins, good players are ITM 12-15% range). You have to be shooting for higher payouts in these because just attempting to get into the money will be a losing proposition in the longrun.
Also, instead of setting yourself short term goals of making it to certain players left in tourney, play your game much more based upon your stack size & how that relates to the size of the blinds!!! (< this is crucial!!).
Also, ignore how your stack rates vs. 'average stack size' as this is useless info. for the most part & shouldn't be affecting how we play (contrary to what many might think). Stack sizes is key. Learn how to play on diff. stack sizes while deep into a tourney (also always keeping in mind the size of the stacks (in relation to the blinds) of the other players on your table).

Thats why I suggest the Gus Hansen one. It isnt a load of hard to read stuff, its about a state of mind and realising that waiting for QQ++ is not right. At £3 odd on ebay you can afford it!
 
Poker Orifice

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Honestly I thought Gus' book sucked.
When I first saw it in a bookstore I bought it immediately. I'd heard a few decent reviews on it & was excited to read it.
First page (intro stuff) I was getting hyped... read a few more pages & thought "you're f'n kidding... right? It gets better... right?" By the time I'm hitting the last pages of the book, I'm still waiting for it to get good (or even better). Only read it all because I'm total f'n poker book addict (or was). But I would never ever ever suggest it to anyone (wouldn't want to piss them off)
 
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dan abnormal

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Im bumping thread, NO offense can we leave the books out of it, Im interested in how people play their game, some of their mind thinking and such. All those books are great but the beginning of this thread is gold, when people giving some strategies they employ. Hearing from people you actually see play often, it interesting to see what they are thinking for end game considerations.
 
Arjonius

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If you want to set goals like making it past the bubble and reaching certain payout tiers, that's up to you. Just keep it in mind that when you tighten up in order to raise your chances of making such goals, there is an associated cost, which is that you decrease your chances of going farther.
 
Poker Orifice

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Im bumping thread, NO offense can we leave the books out of it,
The point of the books being mentioned is because there's a HUGE leak here if one is approaching tournament play in the manner that OP has suggested. 'The book's will help one to understand some basic fundamental of Tournament play (ie. you can't expect to be a winning player if you're blinding off your chips in hopes of just getting ITM).
Also, HOH books cover 'Inflection points' & 'Multiple Inflection points' within the tornament > ie. Bubble play, Increasing blinds, & how we need to take this stuff into consideration & make necessary adjustments.
From reading OP's post, I would think he would benefit GREATLY by reading HOH (or for anyone else approaching tournaments with similiar thinking to OP's).
 
cdooley72

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I know how the OP feels, it is a hard transition go from what got you there to how to finish. I know that my late game is where I need the most work my self. I satellited my way into two decent size tournaments this week end. I hope I can do well and get to the point where I can play my late game like I should. It comes with the learning process know what to do is only half of it. You have to have the confidence to do it and that comes with time and exp.
 
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So here I am in 7th place of a field of 90 top 12 get paid.
How do I play?

update. As I wrote that I was dealt KK, raised got shoved, called Vs QQ
Now in first place. And it's a knockout...
 
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dan abnormal

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I know how the OP feels, it is a hard transition go from what got you there to how to finish. I know that my late game is where I need the most work my self. I satellited my way into two decent size tournaments this week end. I hope I can do well and get to the point where I can play my late game like I should. It comes with the learning process know what to do is only half of it. You have to have the confidence to do it and that comes with time and exp.

Total agreement here, It seems the times I do get deep in an MTT, I just fall apart, Not sure, just not sure when the time is right. Got pretty deep in a live mtt a few weeks ago and build the biggest stack I have built live and just panic'd all these chips, not sure who I should go after if anyone and in usually fashion i just started distributing my chips to various players until I was gone. Its like early game I had no trouble playing poker, building stacks and then I jsut went into, OH HELL what do I do now mode
 
fletchdad

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So here I am in 7th place of a field of 90 top 12 get paid.
How do I play?

update. As I wrote that I was dealt KK, raised got shoved, called Vs QQ
Now in first place. And it's a knockout...


Now, that is cool!!!!

Nice!
 
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