MTT: deep ITM, JJ OTB vs BB resteal- medium-large ESS

JCgrind

JCgrind

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pretty basic tourney advice needed here since im relatively new to MTTs.
virtually no hands with villan as he just moved to table.

theres 36 left in the tourney, top 81 paid.

considering stack sizes, should i 4b/call off 4b/fold or flat the 3b since hes probably 3b'ing me pretty wide? (fwiw, im highly active from BTN).



poker stars No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t/t Blinds - 9 players - View hand 2171351
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter


Hero (BTN): t71070
BB: t76695 1 BBs - VPIP: 22, PFR: 22, 3B: 20, AF: 0.0, Hands: 9


Pre Flop: (t0) Hero is BTN with J
club.gif
J
diamond.gif

6 folds, Hero raises to t4000, 1 fold, BB raises to t12000, Hero wants to 4b to t26500.....
 
duggs

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buyin? whats he like?
 
duggs

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35bb eff seems heaps to 4b/c off but it can never be bad. did the last hand he 3bet get shown down? id be inclined to either 4b/c or flat never ever ever 4b/f
 
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DrSparky

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If you've only got 9 hands on him does he really know your active from the button?

If not, should we assign him a tighter 3 bet range?

As played with current info - 4b/call (Beginners opinion)

As Duggs said - never 4b/fold
 
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JCgrind

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hes just moved to the table, so i only have 9 hands on him and consequently, cant assign him a range. what i can do is assume people resteal light in the BB this late, esp with meed-large stacks.

buy in is $4.40, and i havent seen a showdown from him.

no he wouldnt know im active from the BTN -.-, but hes 22/22- maybe only 9 hands, but a clear sign that he isnt retarded, and would assume that i, like everyone else, am highly active from the button and opening a wide range.

i think 4b/call off is super standard for bigger tourneys, but im just not sure whether people have a light 5b range at micro MTTs, especially deep ITM nearing final table, since its super rare to see a 4b at these stakes that isnt a shove (in my very limited experience).

i definitely had the opinion that im never 4b/folding. i want to 4b so small to induce a light shove or a flat from a really bad player, so i want to do it with the intention to call off but am just not sure whether hell actually shove light enough for me to bother.

im ~35% vs a range of QQ+, AK. so i guess my question was more, will people do this, as a general rule, in these stages of a tourney with hands like AJs, AQ, TT etc. im just not sure whether people will overplay big non AK aces and medium high pairs this late, this deep
 
JCgrind

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i also wanted to explore flatting the 3b vs 4bing advantages vs disadvantages (ie slowplaying a hand much stronger than i should have vs a presumably wide range while in position [and also having the added image advantage of possibly making people think i just casually flat 3bs IP all the time so they dont resteal against me as much], vs getting folds or getting it in pre)
 
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baudib1

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Chips go in the middle, preferably all of them in some way shape or form.
 
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doomasiggy

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Don't like flatting the 3-bet. Probs 4-bet/call off. You'll see people 5-betting light in micro comps HU.
 
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DrSparky

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JCgrind said:
i also wanted to explore flatting the 3b vs 4bing advantages vs disadvantages (ie slowplaying a hand much stronger than i should have vs a presumably wide range while in position [and also having the added image advantage of possibly making people think i just casually flat 3bs IP all the time so they dont resteal against me as much], vs getting folds or getting it in pre)
Click to expand...

JCgrind said:
hes just moved to the table, so i only have 9 hands on him and consequently, cant assign him a range. what i can do is assume people resteal light in the BB this late, esp with meed-large stacks.

buy in is $4.40, and i havent seen a showdown from him.

no he wouldnt know im active from the BTN -.-, but hes 22/22- maybe only 9 hands, but a clear sign that he isnt retarded, and would assume that i, like everyone else, am highly active from the button and opening a wide range.

i think 4b/call off is super standard for bigger tourneys, but im just not sure whether people have a light 5b range at micro MTTs, especially deep ITM nearing final table, since its super rare to see a 4b at these stakes that isnt a shove (in my very limited experience).

i definitely had the opinion that im never 4b/folding. i want to 4b so small to induce a light shove or a flat from a really bad player, so i want to do it with the intention to call off but am just not sure whether hell actually shove light enough for me to bother.

im ~35% vs a range of QQ+, AK. so i guess my question was more, will people do this, as a general rule, in these stages of a tourney with hands like AJs, AQ, TT etc. im just not sure whether people will overplay big non AK aces and medium high pairs this late, this deep
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought of the general image that can be assigned this late in a MTT - something for me to think about... (Thanks for the reply)

As for the 4b QQ+ AK 5b light etc this is way beyond my level of understanding/experience although I'll be very interested in the responses that come back from those who know...
 
MadMaddie

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Would there be some merit to just calling the 3bet here? I mean in a $4 tournament surely there are lots of weak spots on the table where we can chip up easily.
 
duggs

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in game i probably scope him. but noone will give you credit for 4b/f at this ABI so he is likely only getting it in with like 99+ AQ+ at the very best. thats going to be more weighted towards JJ+ AK tho. i think flatting is fine since he will turn his hand pretty face up at some point.
 
JCgrind

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the more i think about it, the more im liking flatting, since if hes 3bing like sc's i can definitely win a few streets if he binks TP, and he pretty much has to barrel with all the junk that completely whiffs.

thanks for input everyone
 
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and if he 3bets blockers you always win at least a cbet and can call one on almost any texture
 
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DrSparky

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Sorry to invade the post with questions but could I ask a couple of things?

- Are we calling the 3 bet because if he 4bets his range kills us and therefore we don't want to have to 4b/call because we'll be drawing very slim?
- What does "blockers" refer to - the only thing I can think of is a blocking bet, but I thought that was only applicable post-flop?

Thanks
 
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no we arent 4betting because its much thinner value we get. and he wont be 5bet bluffing nearly enough so we fold out too many of his bluffs.

and blockers refer to a card in my hand blocking part of you range. lets say you raise my BB and you only call with AA (stupid example but its easy). there are 6 combinations of AA, AcAh AcAs AcAd AhAs AhAd AdAs. now if I 3bet with Ac2h as a bluff, your calling range has halved since now only AhAs AhAd AdAs are possible.

seems complicated but the shorts are that paired hands have 6 combos and removing 1 card leaves 3.
removing 2 cards leaves 1.

so on 332 board there are 3 combinations of 22 possible, but only 1 combination of 33.

with unpaired hands its just basic multiplication. for AK, 4 Aces x 4 Kings = 16 combos. remove an A and 3 Aces x 4 Kings = 12combos.
 
JCgrind

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Yeah what Duggs said. I think we win more chips more often from just flatting the 3b, since he'll virtually always bet the flop as opposed to us 4b'ing and presumably getting a ton of folds
 
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DrSparky

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Thanks to both for your explanations, that makes sense now - I hadn't thought that we would be "folding out bluffs" and therefore get less value.
 
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baudib1

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I hate flatting here. The problem with flatting is if he has the hands we want him to have, the board's getting get ugly for one or both of you and you missed your chance to stack him. The times he whiffs AK or TT and you pick up a cbet are great but winning his whole stack is a lot greater. You fold out his bluffs unfortunately, but that's probably mitigated by the times he'll fold KQ or even AQ. Yes you'll (JC) have an edge postflop on most but your edge is greatly diminished by the fact that you have a PSB left on the turn.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I prefer a 4b/call.

I hate flatting unless you intend to get it in at any point on any street, basically meaning if you expect him to fold to a ton of 4bets pre and you feel you get more chips by flatting & get some value from one cbet at least, then I think it's ok. However, if you ever contemplate folding on any flops/turns, then the best option is to just 4b pre and get it in.

Don't even think about 4b folding vs a BB for 35 eff that would be beyond bad.


Also I have to add, if you have the BTN and a BB 3bets you, regardless of the buy-in or what villian is like, it's never going to be bad getting in JJ 35bb effective pre.
 
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smidjet

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i woulda flat called because i like to win big pots with my big hands while leaving plenty of room to quit. im hoping to hit my hand or adjust as the hand plays through.
 
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