Moving from cash games to tournament.

IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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I've never played tournament poker, mainly because I lose focus easily (can't help it) and doubt I will commit the time. But I've had a good look through the tourney list on pokerstars and was impressed to see how much variety there is; even shorter timed tournaments that would suit me while I build up my mental stamina.
The small buy-ins available are also really cool.


My only concern before I dive in is; I'm sure there are plenty of differences between cash and tourney (the way you play I would guess).


Are there any important tips you can give me to begin with?
 
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gabethegimp

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There isn't that much of a difference in the smaller numbers MTT's. Just play in position solid poker, make a few plays when you sense weakness and you'll be fine.

Larger mtt's you need to be tight early and sparingly make plays until you got the stack to gamble with - unless it's deepstack then have fun. Loosen up toward the mid area, tight again on the bubble then once your itm play solid poker.

I'm def a believer in when you get a hand, in good position you play it aggressively but not recklessly.
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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What is the bubble?

EDIT: never mind, I looked it up. That must be pretty stressful in a tourney with good cash :D
 
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Anatoliy Tolik

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Cache game and tournaments are completely different poker strategies, here in a couple of sentences you will not describe their difference, although I can use a wider range of hands in my game cache. I would like to give you a great read of Harrington's Cache and Harrington in Hold'em and you make the most of you all.
 
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karl coakley

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The biggest differences are that chips have more value in a tournament than a cash game. When all your chips are gone in a tournament you are out. When in a cash game you just buy-in again. I tend to chase less in a tournament.

The second one is that you need to be more active and have a wider range in a tournament. In a cash game you can pretty much wait for a hand in your range. Tournaments are structured with blinds and antes that increase forcing play.


The third big one is you have to change styles at different points in a tournament. You can (and maybe should) in a cash game but it is required in a tournament because of the increasing blind/ante structure. If you fail to adjust your play to stay ahead of the blinds you will blind out waiting for a hand.
 
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bkkblues99

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I've never played tournament poker, mainly because I lose focus easily (can't help it) and doubt I will commit the time. But I've had a good look through the tourney list on PokerStars and was impressed to see how much variety there is; even shorter timed tournaments that would suit me while I build up my mental stamina.
The small buy-ins available are also really cool.


My only concern before I dive in is; I'm sure there are plenty of differences between cash and tourney (the way you play I would guess).


Are there any important tips you can give me to begin with?
I would suggest to start with SNGs. Maybe 18/27/45 players. The most important difference between cash and tournament I'd say learning to play different stack sizes.
In cash games you almost always playing 100BB deep. In tournaments, in the beginning you might be that deep but very soon the average stack sizes become 15-20 BB. In Turbos, 20 BB is often a big stack.
Also learning push/fold strategy is crucial. You don't have that in cash games. And finally learning how to steal/re-steal blinds is another crucial factor.
Good luck to you and hope to see you in the tables!
 
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PKRNRS

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You can rebuy into many tournaments so many play similar to cash games. You bust out early then just reach into your pocket to get another buy-in, same as cash. You also have to be mindful of stack sizes, bet sizes and blind levels in Tournaments. Something that is never an issue in cash. Unlike cash though you can get people to fold.
 
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Tylor Mendez

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Early tournament: play tight/aggressive until you build a stack, because players tend to throw around chips light early tournament. So maybe loosen up after first break and try to trap your opponents. If you have the stack, stealing blinds on the bubble can help push you towards making the final table.
 
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bkkblues99

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If you got the cash games basics down and solid, you will do well in tournaments in no time because most tournament players have a difficult time playing big stacks (50BB++). So if your cash basics are solid and you have good post flop skills, you will start crushing tournaments soon with enough dedication and studying.
 
blanktheman

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tournaments are a lot of fun and require tons and tons of patience. Play tournaments over and over and you'll learn how to play them. One piece of advice I can give is play the big tournaments with many players first. That way you can get a feel for how tournaments are played. Playing smaller tournaments is fine but everyone keeps raising and going all in and requires different skills to get in the money.

Have fun and good luck.
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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If you got the cash games basics down and solid, you will do well in tournaments in no time because most tournament players have a difficult time playing big stacks (50BB++). So if your cash basics are solid and you have good post flop skills, you will start crushing tournaments soon with enough dedication and studying.

My cash game strategy is pretty solid, my main problem with it is:

Unlike cash though you can get people to fold.


I like that tip :D

I can never get people to fold in cash games, they just keep calling and keep outdrawing me (even when I was well ahead).
I'm absolutely certain I want to dive in to tournament play, I think it is where I should be.

All good advice so far, really do appreciate the replies.
 
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bkkblues99

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My cash game strategy is pretty solid, my main problem with it is:




I like that tip :D

I can never get people to fold in cash games, they just keep calling and keep outdrawing me (even when I was well ahead).
I'm absolutely certain I want to dive in to tournament play, I think it is where I should be.

All good advice so far, really do appreciate the replies.
Expect people to call very light in tournaments as well. Specially in certain situations when they are short stacked. That's actually a great thing if you have a decent stack and you are running good.

Best of luck to you!
 
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freestocks

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I like tournaments better than cash. You can knock people out. Winning a tournament has a big payout. There is nuance in the evolution of the game.Enjoy!
 
Gohaku94

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I really important factor in mtts is variance. Even If you are a winning cash game player you will still end up losing lots of buy-ins before winning in mtts, it's just the way it is.
So.. have a big enough amount of buy-ins for the mtts you are going to play.
 
Alucard

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My cash game strategy is pretty solid,


If your cash game strategy is pretty solid, why are you moving to tourneys?

If you can't handle a couple of beats at cash, you won't be able to handle the variance at MTTs.
Start from small. freerolls, SnGs etc
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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If your cash game strategy is pretty solid, why are you moving to tourneys?

If you can't handle a couple of beats at cash, you won't be able to handle the variance at MTTs.
Start from small. Freerolls, SnGs etc


I just like the idea of paying a small amount to enter a tourney, and having the opportunity to get a lot of game time with the (albeit unlikely) chance the win something genuinely big.

I've kinda got into a weird place lately with cash games where standard games are unbearably boring, so I'm playing Zoom 99% of the time. But then Zoom is an entirely different animal altogether as I'm sure you know.

Tourney will give me the chance to play a wider range, see more action, potentially play much longer for a lot less money.
 
Ragequit

Ragequit

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Cash Vs. Tournament

Hi. Nice post. The mechanics of moving from one game to another is a question of strategy AND lifestyle adjustment. Cash and Tournaments are VERY different monsters. The two variants share the same basic rules, hand ranks, and structural layout. But in terms of betting strategy and Aggression, they are vastly different games. Each one also asks different things of you from your life.


During a Cash game, you don't have the same 'Fear Equity' that you do during a Tournament, and therefore you have less ‘Fold Equity’.. This is because there is no fear of elimination. In an MTT, once your stack is gone, you’re gone.. But in a Cash game, you can reload your stack until you’re evicted by the bank. This means that Tournament chips are far more precious than Cash chips to the players. Therefore, it is easier to move your opponents off of their marginal hands in a tournament because they know that one big mistake means they’re on the rail. In a Cash game, if they lose a big pot they simply Auto-reload and start again. This has important consequences to both strategy and bet sizing in Tournaments Vs. Cash Games.


In SNGs/MTTs, Fear Equity means we can use fewer chips than a Cash Game to force our opponents to fold out their junk/marginals. This is typically why you see players 2-2.5x minraise in MTTs instead of the familiar 3x-4x Raise in a Cash game. It's also why you will see MTT players cbet with seemingly pointless sizes of 0.25-0.33x and use smaller value bets than Ring games. These players have Fear Equity on their side. Although some of these small bet sizes are offering attractive pot odds to drawing hands, they know that players in a large tournament are unwilling to put chips into the pot without the nuts or close to it. This allows them to risk the minimum chips possible for the maximum effect of forcing their ‘Scared’ opponents to fold. It also has the added benefit of building pots with the best hand by attracting chips from players who are on a dead draw.


In a Cash game t
hese same ‘Donk’ sized bets and raises are far less effective with weak hands and will be frequently called and re-raised. Therefore, in Cash, the Bet sizes tend to be bigger. In addition, raises and re-raises are larger and more frequent as chips do not need to be saved. 4Betting and 5Betting in Tournaments is virtually not-existent except with heavily nutted stackoff ranges. In cash, RegWars are the norm with both Polarised and De-Polarised ranges, each checking to see which player's Air is the hottest. These games are FAR more aggressive during all game stages.




Conversely, MTTs do not allow this same luxury of bluff-raising and bluff catching. The room for error is just too narrow. In terms of decision making, the only thing that matters to Cash regs is the size of their bankroll, the Pot odds and the EV of a particular play. That’s basically it. Although SNG/MTT share these same considerations but they must also take the ICM into account and the payout structure when making decisions. A few other things to mention is that there are generally more multiway pots during tournaments (Mid to Late Stages). This is because many players are reluctant to raise pre-flop as this causes two problems.


(1) It creates a bigger pot which means more difficult low SPR flop decisions.
(2) It can cause players to become pot committed or close to pot-committed.


Again, Cash game players don’t have to worry about this as much because their tournament life is not on the line, but it does raise it’s own similar concerns in terms of SPR. But overall, I think there are fewer Multiway pots in Cash games (Unless you play at tables full of micro-stations), because of the frequent raising, re-raising and squeezing. Tournaments tend to contain a much larger number of recreational players and fish because these players know that Cash games have a tougher player base. Even the best of cash regs are only earning a modest ROI. Ring games can’t do much for the good player except give them a steady income over a LONG period of time. Short term Big wins are of course possible but these quickly tend to be re-devoured by the variance monster.


Although that sucks, Cash players can pee whenever they want, go shopping or see friends, and go to bed whenever they feel tired. They also never have to tell their family or spouse ‘I can’t love you right now, cause i’m on the bubble here’. Tournament players have none of these perks. Their career involves a much stricter daily routine and they are completely locked to the schedule of whichever Tournament they are currently in. MTT and SNG players must also suffer deeper bankroll swings because they do not always get paid enough even after the deepest run. They know that these deep downswings are a part of the Tournament game. They are hanging around until an eventual big payday, and have accepted that such a day may never come. They don’t have the same freedom to “Switch off” and leave whenever their life needs them.


But here’s the rub. Although it involves much more personal sacrifice, money and time to be a successful MTT reg, Tournaments have the ability to change your whole life in a single day. Period. A 200NL Cash game reg can buy into a game and maybe come out with 3+ double ups on a good day, they can also lose the same amount just as easily. This lump will then ultimately be redistributed among other players as the Cash player’s net ROI% plays itself out. A tournament Player however, can buy into the Sunday Million for $215 and come out the other side with $250,000 in a single day! Now obviously that is the ideal scenario. Such a player might have easily tried 25 times before getting into the money.


My overall point is that Cash Poker can only change your life if you’re the best of the best. Heavily prized tournaments with staggering payouts have been won by fishy amateurs who were just simply having the luckiest day of their lives. If those same players were in a cash game, they would most certainly already have gone broke, or at best been up a few buyins after rivering a few regs. Neither of which would matter very much. As an MTT player myself, I am not saying that Tournaments are a free for all which ANYONE with no skills can win. I’m not saying that at all. But it CAN and DOES happen, and therefore it gives ALL players a chance! An unlikely dream to shoot for, which drives us status hungry creatures! Something enormous which gives meaning to the whole day-in-day-out routine of what we do as players, and lets be honest a diamond encrusted bracelet that says we rock at cards is pretty cool :D


Ragequit
 
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SuperPwn

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It basically becomes less of a skill game and more gambling as the blinds go up. I think it's actually a more interesting form of poker regardless of that because in a tournament, there's an infinite amount of different potential situations with different stack sizes around you.
 
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klada152

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I've never played tournament poker, mainly because I lose focus easily (can't help it) and doubt I will commit the time.
Are there any important tips you can give me to begin with?
Start with 18, 27 , players sit n go when you see your focus and patience are ready start playing mtt.
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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Ragequit - fantastic post, a lot of thought and effort, thank you very much.
 
Ragequit

Ragequit

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You're welcome! Best of luck with your decision. I left Cash behind a long time ago and have never regretted it.


R
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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Won my first tournament! It was a $1 knockout SnG but still :D

I entered the "Big $2.20 replay" first, a field of about 1400. I was honestly getting trash hand time and again, got about 1 hour 30 minutes in and was bored out of my tiny mind, shoved with A5s (I still had basically the starting chips left - won a few small pots by squeezing), and was busted by JJ - thankfully, if I'm honest.

I don't think I have the mental stamina to go for many hours just yet. So I joined a few small SnG's at random and won my second one, knocked out all my opponents as well. A win is a win, my first paid tournament cash finish and it was a monster :icon_rabb

Onward and upwards...
 
Ragequit

Ragequit

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Hi again. Congrats on the SNG. Always a great place to start and cut your tournament teeth. You have to build up to the patience level required to persevere and win an MTT. It can be very exhausting to the mind after many hours of play. Just remember that it's a marathon, not a race. If you find that you're getting bored and your patience begins to slip, open up a Sit and Go beside the MTT and play that alongside it. That way you can keep your mind busy while the MTT is getting underway. The SNG will finish well before the late MTT stage and hopefully by then you'll be ready for some heavy action.

R
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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Currently in my first "Bubble", 4th out of 110 I think it was, currently 16 remaining and pays to 15th.
I've got a decent stack too, just want a money finish in my first proper MTT - even if it's only the $6-ish for 15th place.

Really exciting :D

EDIT: 14 remain, I made it into the money. I am pleased with my performance so far, 4th at the minute.
 
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IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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Made the final table. Currently 3rd... TT and going to shove.

EDIT: finished in 8th place and I'm not disappointed even with the river suck out defeat (what else?).


I think I lasted almost 4 hours in that tournament, which kinda scares me - how long do big ones last? I'd be absolutely mentally exhausted.
 
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