Most profitable very small micro stack games

I've been playing $2.20 180 turbo SnG with decent results but am starting to think that at this level there would be more profitable games out there. It seems to be profitable at these games one must play tight early, then go into push/fold mode and use fold equity to take down the tournament(such as when you can increase your stack by 20% or so) However, players at these levels are fairly prone to call an all-in and I've been thinking maybe it would be more profitable to play non-turbo 9 SnG/ double or nothing, since I can be extremely tight and let others bust each other out and I can just ride my starting stack to 4th/6th place and take it from there. I'm not sure if it will be that easy though but that was the general idea, or maybe even cash games, but I don't really want to venture into cash games as I think it may put of my live tournament game.

When I first started out I had a very limited bank roll as it came from me winning a free roll; I started playing 360 person 10c games; they had no rake, the players were terrible so I would have had a huge ROI% However, the prize pool is so small. I tried to do 16 games at one time but found it too difficult to manage

IMO Probably the 90man tourneys 1dollar plus are best, blinds are set up like 10/20, 15/30, 20/40, 25/50, 30/60 etc allowing you much more time to sit back and wait for your prems as its best to be tight early and allowing you much more time till its push/fold mode, coinflipping etc as opposed to normal tourneys when you have to start risking it abit more when blinds get to 100/200etc... for single tables though they're fine, for MTT I find blinds increase far too fast.

Micro stakes are great to start out on with a smaller bankroll. Once you build your roll i would recommend playing a little higher stakes because the play gets better and are alot less wreckless players

Eclipsenz said:

IMO Probably the 90man tourneys 1dollar plus are best, blinds are set up like 10/20, 15/30, 20/40, 25/50, 30/60 etc allowing you much more time to sit back and wait for your prems as its best to be tight early and allowing you much more time till its push/fold mode, coinflipping etc as opposed to normal tourneys when you have to start risking it abit more when blinds get to 100/200etc... for single tables though they're fine, for MTT I find blinds increase far too fast.

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I originally thought that too, that structure makes the better player more likely to cash out; however, they take about as long as the 180 person so because of that, I believe the 180 or more profitable because they take as long with equally bad players and a double prize pool, just there's more luck to them and hence variance.

I just had a cash game session and went well; made $8 at the .01-.02 games, playing for 1.5 hours. I was running fairly well though, didn't really get unlucky and seemed to hit my hands a bit more than I was suppose to so I'm thinking they are more profitable but not sure. I played really tight though, but I think that's the best way to play such games, I think; I folded KQs UTG and AJs mid position when their was 1 limper and one small raiser

CntryBoys said:

Micro stakes are great to start out on with a smaller bankroll. Once you build your roll i would recommend playing a little higher stakes because the play gets better and are alot less wreckless players

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Of course, I just need to work up to that level first...

Im not sure about Full tilt, but the 180 mans shoudl be super profitable, the only problem you face is the rake. And remember variance is a bitch, so going 20 games without a cash isn't uncommon. Id suggest finding one sort of game, and playing it for a long period(1000+ games), Otherwise, if you keep switching games you will never get really good at them, which means you will never actually master and form of game... I find it's a concern with players starting out, can be hard, and boring playing one type, but the advantages of doing so are there.

So, really, find a game you like, and stick with it, whatever suits your lifestyle/attention span etc.

For me personally i prefer playing the 9 man turbos, it's just the game i've always turned too if i need to make a profit, get the bankroll up etc. So yeah, i just suggest thinking about what game/structure is best for you.

CntryBoys said:

Micro stakes are great to start out on with a smaller bankroll. Once you build your roll i would recommend playing a little higher stakes because the play gets better and are alot less wreckless players

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Huh? this makes very little sense, You want to move up so you are playing better players? You WANT to be playing with reckless idiots, or players who are really exploitable, they are your profit...

I tend to agree with moving up to say the $3 plus games, but only because the rake at the lower games is ridiculously high

WiZZiM said:

Huh? this makes very little sense, You want to move up so you are playing better players? You WANT to be playing with reckless idiots, or players who are really exploitable, they are your profit...

I tend to agree with moving up to say the $3 plus games, but only because the rake at the lower games is ridiculously high

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Some players do better vs. slightly better players. Yes you can make adjustments for the loose calling stations & over-aggro spewtards but if you have a table full of them it can be a real drag.

If you played on Fulltilt I'd suggest the $2 9man reg. speed. (not sure about pokerstars?)
Perhaps play the 9man STT/SNG and then once you've gotten good at them, play the 27player SNG's (in the 27's - $5 - $10, you'll find a handful of good players with very high ROI from playing these games, & you'll find a bunch of really bad players (probably the ones who weren't able to cut it playing the 9mans). You'll be able to achieve a much higher ROI in the 27's (& on Fulltilt they fill up quickly... 'non' turbos). Not sure what would be comparable on Pokerstars? (the $1.75 18man turbos are a joke).
On a small bankroll I'd probably play the $4 -180's, on a very small bankroll... idk.. maybe 2nl instead of micro SNG/STT (or the $3's 9man perhaps?).

If it were myself, I'd trade my Stars acc't $'s for Fulltilt & play on there instead (I really don't like Stars micro play)

Poker Orifice said:

Some players do better vs. slightly better players. Yes you can make adjustments for the loose calling stations & over-aggro spewtards but if you have a table full of them it can be a real drag.

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+1000000!
You're one of the few fair and rational people around!

i aggree. i like to play players that have some idea of whats going on. even if they are overly aggressive. I find its easier to get a read on players that have some idea of whats going on.

I have tried just what was suggested earlier. I've been playing the non turbo 1.15 double or nothings on stars. Unfortunately at lower levels the rake is so high. 15% for this while the 5 dollar non turbo double or nothings have a 40c rake meaning an 8% rake. I've played for a few months and occasionally you get a loose table where you can fold into the money but often times people are surprisingly tight and the games take quite long. As soon as you can afford it I would suggest the 5.40 double or nothings.

straytfrush said:

I have tried just what was suggested earlier. I've been playing the non turbo 1.15 double or nothings on stars. Unfortunately at lower levels the rake is so high. 15% for this while the 5 dollar non turbo double or nothings have a 40c rake meaning an 8% rake. I've played for a few months and occasionally you get a loose table where you can fold into the money but often times people are surprisingly tight and the games take quite long. As soon as you can afford it I would suggest the 5.40 double or nothings.

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Hmm, but how tight do you actually play? I think in those you can play incredibly tight for 2/3rds of it, then change gears and steal pots later when you have an extremely tight image; this should give you the chips to make it to the money. When I say tight I mean fold AJ KQs early, kind of cash game rules; never limp, possible exception with pockets if you think you will get paid which I doubt will happen enough, especially on a double or nothing. Hmm, I'll give these a games a session and see how I go

EDIT: Now that I think about it I think it would be best to play even tighter than cash games, so fold AQo early AJ mid, I think

When I say tight I mean I only play QQ KK AA anywhere and Ak or AQ from the button depending on if anyone is in the pot. I do this until the blinds get to about 50/100 or 75/150. It gets dicey though with the tight tables because just about everyone has under 10 big blinds and if provoked will go all in with any ace to an attempted steal. You have to pick very carefully who to do it to. This is where HUDs come in very handy.

straytfrush said:

When I say tight I mean I only play QQ KK AA anywhere and Ak or AQ from the button depending on if anyone is in the pot. I do this until the blinds get to about 50/100 or 75/150. It gets dicey though with the tight tables because just about everyone has under 10 big blinds and if provoked will go all in with any ace to an attempted steal. You have to pick very carefully who to do it to. This is where HUDs come in very handy.

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The play on the smallest games were fairly loose; I seen a few people limping K7 hands and people were calling me pushes with stuff like K high, suited connectors. I think someone could tear up these games but that person won't be me; too many new concepts I'll have to learn which will interfere with my tournament game since there are complete different concpets

One of the best ROI enhancing games out there right now IMO is the $3 turbo rebuy 180s at Pokerstars. It has unlimited rebuys for the 30 minutes and an addon at the end of the rebuy period.

The 1st place cash ends up to be $450-$600 depending on the rebuys...an insane ROI. These games are totally made for TAGs and you can almost always chip up enough during the rebuy period grabbing loose player chips that you will make the money more often than not.

Some say its "bingo" poker, but I prefer playing against those types of players for the win.

NOLA Red said:

One of the best ROI enhancing games out there right now IMO is the $3 turbo rebuy 180s at Pokerstars. It has unlimited rebuys for the 30 minutes and an addon at the end of the rebuy period.

The 1st place cash ends up to be $450-$600 depending on the rebuys...an insane ROI. These games are totally made for TAGs and you can almost always chip up enough during the rebuy period grabbing loose player chips that you will make the money more often than not.

Some say its "bingo" poker, but I prefer playing against those types of players for the win.

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I'll have to give that one a go; what would be the optimal way to play those?

For micro stakes on full tilt. The 90 man double stack that is only 1.10 total buy in.

pat3392 said:

I'll have to give that one a go; what would be the optimal way to play those?

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I'd say that you should play extremely tight and conservative during the early rebuy stages and wait for an easy double up or two. In micro stakes rebuy tournaments the play is very, very loose. Without a doubt you will get your share of bad beats from maniac Ax or worse players but don't let that frustrate you. You may have to play numerous tournaments before you make a decent cash, but because the buy in is low and the cash can be quite large, it is worth it even in the short run.

With that said, I'd also like to make a suggestion regarding whether or not to rebuy or add on in these types of tournaments. The way I approach this, right or wrong, is that if it's early in the tournament and average chip stacks are not that far from starting stacks then I'd consider a rebuy. I also look at the hand I lost with--was it bad play on my part or a bad beat or cooler? If it was a bad play on my part, I'm more likely to just chuck that tournament and take a break. Why throw good money after bad, ya know? If I played the hand correctly and was beat by, say, a dominated hand, then I most likely will rebuy and regroup (if as I said, average stacks are still close to starting stacks).

As far as add ons go, I never, ever add on to a short stack. Unless my stack is at least around the average stack level, I don't bother. Consider that all the larger stacks are definitely going to add on, so what equity does an add on to a small stack actually buy you? Not much; in fact, none IMO. So, again it would be a case of wasted money.

If you are new to these types of tournaments, I hope some of that helps! Get yourself a drink and snacks, sit down and enjoy the wonderful world of BINGO micro stakes sngs!

From the more experienced players out there, I'd like to get your take on rebuy/addon tournaments.

I have found some profitable micro stakes in 5NL (6 and full) at Full Tilt. The play at that level on the average is just so horrible, i.e. players calling down to the river with nothing, that any decent player can easily earn 5-10 BB (if not more), which, if you multi-table, can help build a small bankroll. And the level of play is such that even someone without a lot of multi-tabling experience can pull it off without much problem up to 3 tables. After about 3,000 hands (small sample size noted), I am up around 10 BB/100.

As far as tournaments, I have found the $3.30 90-player SnG at Full Tilt to be extremely profitable. Again, I know it's a very small sample size but over 150 of these tournaments, my ROI is 88.3. It pays off the final table with $72 to the winner. These are turbo/double stack tournaments so when it gets down to 30 players and antes are introduced, it does become pretty much an all-in fest unless you are already a big chip leader. But, again, the quality of play is such that a decent player can give a nice boost to a young bankroll. And unlike the $1.10 version, they run continuously and fill up every 5 minutes or less.

dwolfg said:

For micro stakes on full tilt. The 90 man double stack that is only 1.10 total buy in.

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After reading through the thread, i decided to play some. I played in one of these tournaments have some of the worst players I have seen out there. The overall skill level is pathetic. People will go in with shitty hands and keep calling without hitting anything. Its easy money out there.

i have nearly tripled my original deposit ($50) on ftp and stars by playing the following regiliously

180 man $4.40 pokerstars
180 man $2.20 ftp
27 man $2.20 ftp
18 man $2.20 ftp
27 man $3.40 pokerstars
45 man $0.25 pokerstars
90 man $0.25 pokerstars
90 man $1.10 double stack ftp
45 man $1.10 ftp

all great for bank roll building, just be patient! super tight early play is key, dont risk chips unless you KNOW your ahead because all the donks call with anything at these micro levels.

goodluck!

The 2.20 heads up games on stars are quite easy as well. If you have any decent amount of knowledge about heads up play it should be a breeze.

jbatesm said:

After reading through the thread, i decided to play some. I played in one of these tournaments have some of the worst players I have seen out there. The overall skill level is pathetic. People will go in with shitty hands and keep calling without hitting anything. Its easy money out there.

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Those are my bankroll builders for when I want to take a shot at the 24+2 tourneys, or play cash games to build up my ftps for bonuses and such, as well as improve my cash game skills(Overall I am a losing cash game player).

NOLA Red said:

One of the best ROI enhancing games out there right now IMO is the $3 turbo rebuy 180s at Pokerstars. It has unlimited rebuys for the 30 minutes and an addon at the end of the rebuy period.

The 1st place cash ends up to be $450-$600 depending on the rebuys...an insane ROI. These games are totally made for TAGs and you can almost always chip up enough during the rebuy period grabbing loose player chips that you will make the money more often than not.

Some say its "bingo" poker, but I prefer playing against those types of players for the win.

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Where do I find these (what lobby?) and how often do they run??