One mistake leads to another mistake.

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Sneaky Feet

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Morning all. So to start off I'm new to tournament play. I play 2nl cash on poker stars a few hours a week but want to start playing live tournaments because damn they look like fun! So I found a live weekly tournament in my area. The rules are 30.00 buy in, you can rebuy 3 times before the break and top up at the break. I've gone twice last Saturday being my second time.

So I had been playing pretty well I thought playing solid TAG. A couple people had to rebuy at the table and another had gone out. I was sitting about 3rd or 4th in chips at the table. I was feeling pretty good at this point.

The break came and I ran out to grab a cup of coffee. When I came back I noticed everyone had chipped up (+6000) so now I was the short stack! This I would say was my first mistake. Blinds were 400/800 and I had about 10500. I folded a full round then was dealt Ad6h UTG. I raised to 3000 and got 2 callers MP2 and CO. The flop came 3cAc8h. I only had about 7500 left so I went all in. MP2 folded and CO called. We flipped and he had Kc8c. Turn was a 7 and the river was a K. So that was the end of my night.

I wouldn't usually play this hand but because the blinds were coming I thought I should because I was short.

Was that my second mistake or did I do the right thing?

Thanks!
 
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Pandaaaaa88

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chances was 50/50 for short stack right decision imho
 
JustDestined

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Gotta agree with Panda it's 50/50 could play out either way. In those situations I feel its better to make a play than do nothing and blind down to where you can do nothing.
 
Arjonius

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If you're going to play an R&A, you must be prepared to rebuy unless it happens to be one that, for some reason, most of the players treat as a freezeout. This still doesn't mean you have to rebuy or add on, but when you don't, you should have pretty good reasons not to.

On your last hand, what was the point of making it 3.5x? Were you planning on folding if there's a 3bet, leaving yourself with less than 10bb? If called, you were likely to be OOP. Had you thought about and planned for these possibilities before you opened?

What to do may be table-dependent, but with no idea about the other players or the way play had been going in general, I prefer both folding and shoving to your actual action.
 
suby_rafael

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You had more than 10 big blinds. Playing Ace rag from UTG is really a bad move. It is a fold. If you had it at late position only then you should consider a raise. You should only have raised any pair or strong aces from early position. Nothing else considering your position. So chances of you losing such hands very often if you play them from early position. Learn to be more patient and pick your spots well.
 
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Arjonius said:
If you're going to play an R&A, you must be prepared to rebuy unless it happens to be one that, for some reason, most of the players treat as a freezeout. This still doesn't mean you have to rebuy or add on, but when you don't, you should have pretty good reasons not to.

On your last hand, what was the point of making it 3.5x? Were you planning on folding if there's a 3bet, leaving yourself with less than 10bb? If called, you were likely to be OOP. Had you thought about and planned for these possibilities before you opened?

What to do may be table-dependent, but with no idea about the other players or the way play had been going in general, I prefer both folding and shoving to your actual action.
Click to expand...

Suby, Arjonius, if this was a cash game I wouldn't have even thought twice about it but because I was against blinds I played the hand. You're absolutely right. It was a bad hand in a bad position. Hell 1/2 the time I probably wouldn't have even played that on the button in a cash game. Thanks for the clarification.

Arjonius to be honest I was the only one that was 3betting at the table and I had planned either a shove or fold. That was pretty much my escape. I was surprised that K8 called me actually. He said the only reason he did was because he had a draw. And as for topping up at the break, I never even thought of it! :) I know that was definitely my first mistake and won't do that again!

Thanks again for your comments. Definitely not falling on deaf ears.
 
SeaRun

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Arjonius said:
If you're going to play an R&A, you must be prepared to rebuy unless it happens to be one that, for some reason, most of the players treat as a freezeout. This still doesn't mean you have to rebuy or add on, but when you don't, you should have pretty good reasons not to. >>>>SNIP
Click to expand...

The man is right as usual.

In the area I live, there's plenty of poker games that are R&A, and a $30 BI normally costs the folks that play $150 - $200. I would have no issue buying in to a cash game for $200, but the way some morons play these R&As, I couldn't be bothered. Or if they wanted to make it a straight $200 BI with none of the R&A BS, Hell yeah, I'm in
 
pfb8888

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shove or fold ...

and when bad luck happens ...(missing addon)...

just brace yourself for more bad luck cause that's how luck works...a cascade of torture...revel and laugh in its face...and you win...even as you lose
 
hobonc

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Like Arjon said, if you were committed to play the hand by raising, you should have just shoved. You were on the border to play or fold with such a crappy Ace in that position. I really wouldn't fault either decision. I think unless I felt sure all would fold to my all-in I would fold.
 
theRaven68

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A6 vs K8, chances were 50/50, but...
you had smallest stack, but at 400/800 level with 10.5k, you had space to avoid play with a bad kicker when you were out of position.
 
teepack

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Yes, the first mistake was not being aware of the rules and missing out on the add-on. The second mistake was playing an A-6 from early position. That's a pretty easy fold there. Now if you are the button with A-6 and everybody folds to you, that's probably an automatic shove in that spot. But otherwise, get out of dodge.
 
vnonline

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If this is your mistake so it's mine too, I'm usually in this kind of hand. For an example, I(11.000 chips) have K-K and my opponent(25.000 chips) have 10-10, he raised 5000 chips, I'm all-in (because this is final and I'm getting tired), he called. Flop: 9 J 2, Turn: 3, River: 10 Damn it!!!! LoL
 
el_magiciann

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You played it good, i think this cannot be a mistake :)
 
teepack

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vnonline said:
If this is your mistake so it's mine too, I'm usually in this kind of hand. For an example, I(11.000 chips) have K-K and my opponent(25.000 chips) have 10-10, he raised 5000 chips, I'm all-in (because this is final and I'm getting tired), he called. Flop: 9 J 2, Turn: 3, River: 10 Damn it!!!! LoL
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that is not a mistake. that is bad luck.
 
BadB420

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I believe the first mistake is the only real mistake! People will have there opinions on what they think if your a rag UTG was a mistake but I kind of get it seeing is how your now the small stack and not many blinds left! But all of this could have been prevented if you paid attention during the break and stacked up like everyone else! That may not have been the only mistake but it does look like it was the only mistake that mattered!!!
 
eidikos

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hi!
i would like to know how many people were sitting at the table
raising an ace is always a good idea
also they knew that you were the short stack and you were looking for a decent hand to shove
you were a 60/40 favorite pre flop and a 80/20 big favorite post flop
your huge mistake was not to add on
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I wonder if when you say "3 betting" what you really mean is opening the pot for 3x the BB. To me, 3 betting means somebody else raised and you re-raised. a re-raise is a 3 bet. if somebody re-re-raised it would be a 4bet.

anyways....the add-on is usually mandatory unless you have massively increased your stack by like 4x or more.

As for the hand in question: there are times to play A6 in early position, but not a lot of 'em.

Tournament poker is really all about stack size management. The size of your stack relative to the blinds and relative to the average stack determines which moves are in your arsenal, and which cards are in your range in which positions.

ex: If you're UTG with 1,000 and blinds are 400/800 then you have almost no options. You should basically shove any 2 cards every time.

ex: If you're UTG with 45,000 and blinds are 400/800 then basically every possible move is in your arsenal, and lots of hands are in your late position range if you are a skilled position player.

with a stack of 10,000 and blinds of 400/800 your options or moves have decreased, but you still do have a few moves in your arsenal. For me, I'd allow myself these particular moves:

open-shove (your stack is almost too big for the open shove though)
re-steal (somebody opens, I think they're opening light so I jam it in with a marginal or speculative hand)
punish the limpers a player or 2 or 3 limp and you jam preflop with a marginal or speculative hand...or even a strong hand for that matter.
small raise with intention of jamming almost any flop
Flat a small raise from the BB with intention of jamming any flop that connects with you, or doesn't connect with villain's perceived range.

For me, anytime a preflop raise would be more than about 25-30% of my stack I either make a commitment to jamming on almost any flop, or I just go all in preflop. This is to make my future decisions easier and maximize my fold equity.

notice how many times I used the words "intention" and "commitment" I think most importantly you want to have a plan for various stack sizes. That doesn't mean you 100% rigidly stick to your plan...but just having a plan is the first step....knowing when to adapt or even scrap your plan is a skill that comes with poker experience.
 
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missjacki said:
I wonder if when you say "3 betting" what you really mean is opening the pot for 3x the BB. To me, 3 betting means somebody else raised and you re-raised. a re-raise is a 3 bet. if somebody re-re-raised it would be a 4bet.

anyways....the add-on is usually mandatory unless you have massively increased your stack by like 4x or more.

As for the hand in question: there are times to play A6 in early position, but not a lot of 'em.

Tournament poker is really all about stack size management. The size of your stack relative to the blinds and relative to the average stack determines which moves are in your arsenal, and which cards are in your range in which positions.

ex: If you're UTG with 1,000 and blinds are 400/800 then you have almost no options. You should basically shove any 2 cards every time.

ex: If you're UTG with 45,000 and blinds are 400/800 then basically every possible move is in your arsenal, and lots of hands are in your late position range if you are a skilled position player.

with a stack of 10,000 and blinds of 400/800 your options or moves have decreased, but you still do have a few moves in your arsenal. For me, I'd allow myself these particular moves:

open-shove (your stack is almost too big for the open shove though)
re-steal (somebody opens, I think they're opening light so I jam it in with a marginal or speculative hand)
punish the limpers a player or 2 or 3 limp and you jam preflop with a marginal or speculative hand...or even a strong hand for that matter.
small raise with intention of jamming almost any flop
Flat a small raise from the BB with intention of jamming any flop that connects with you, or doesn't connect with villain's perceived range.

For me, anytime a preflop raise would be more than about 25-30% of my stack I either make a commitment to jamming on almost any flop, or I just go all in preflop. This is to make my future decisions easier and maximize my fold equity.

notice how many times I used the words "intention" and "commitment" I think most importantly you want to have a plan for various stack sizes. That doesn't mean you 100% rigidly stick to your plan...but just having a plan is the first step....knowing when to adapt or even scrap your plan is a skill that comes with poker experience.
Click to expand...

Yes I mean 3 bet. I re-raise a raiser. No one at the table had done it to that point. Thanks for the detailed discription this is really helpful as well.
 
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