Mistake or cooler?

thatgreekdude · Apr 12, 2014

Deep tourney 14k runners, down to around 35players, 6k12k blinds, I raise 3x from the CO with K8o hoping to pick up blinds and antes, sitting on around 30bbs, SB has 35bbs min 3bets me, so i reluctantly make the call for 32k more, i'm putting him on either AQ or AK and i'm confident with my read at this point.

FLOP 3 8 J rainbow

Opponent leads out for around 2/3 Pot, i'm almost always expecting him to check top pair to me here to allow me to bluff at it, so i read his lead out as a sign of weakness and shove all in over the top with middle pair decent kicker where i'm thinking even in the worst case scenario if he has AJ i still have outs to double up and he might not even call Jx, so i'm feeling good as he hesitates for a few seconds but then calls and shows a set of jacks leaving me drawing virtually dead. In hindsight i maybe could of flatted the flop and re-evaluated on the turn, is this play donk or? i know this is brief but let me know your thoughts

teepack · Apr 12, 2014

Since your intent was to steal the blinds and he foiled your strategy by re-raising you, you probably should have stuck with your original idea to steal the blinds, and when that became impossible, it would have been time to fold. Hindsight, of course, is always 20-20.

Karozi615 · Apr 12, 2014

mistake and a cooler

AT THE SAME DAMN TIME!

Jblocher1 · Apr 12, 2014

When you shove there he will only call with hands that crush.... He has bluffs in his range on the flop. Leave the bluffs in there and he might bluff shove the turn. If you have a solid read (not solid at all here lol) then make the best play for that read. In this case I believe it to me flatting flop and calling any turn bet.

Of course that's only with strong reads. Just looking at the hand though without reads, I really see no reason to shove the flop. U really really really want a fold. He calls your behind pretty close to 100% of the time

eidikos · Apr 13, 2014

hi!
i would like to know about your opponent style
risking all your stack there with second pair K kicker is a bad idea in my opinion
he could have many good hands there,i cant understand why you put him only in ak or aq
also with the donk bet,he puts you in a decision for all your stack.better to fold there

spiderman637 · Apr 13, 2014

i think u putting him on ak or aq after his preflop raise is justified...but after the flop, when he bets 2/3 the pot...u shoiuld have definitely put him on Jx...or over pair infact or trips...but then ur plan to shove over his bet with k8o was a mistake...because he would definitely call ur shove as he has committed aroud 40% of his stack already....that too pre turn...so i think its a mistake for u to shove there...

Poker Orifice · Apr 13, 2014

spiderman637 said:
i think u putting him on ak or aq after his preflop raise is justified.....

This ^ is the first part of the original post that I strongly disagree with. It's impossible to put villain on as limited of a range here in this spot as 'AK' 'AQ' (for one, is AQ even part of his 3-betting range here in this spot on 30effective bb stacks?). I believe your first big mistake is putting villain on a whimsical range... a limited range that you're just hoping he has (... has villain been 3-betting vs LP raises from blinds in the past? .... what is your steal % ? ... what is your fold-to-steal% (in villain's eyes)... have you been raise/calling 3-bets & how have you proceeded after flop?). Putting him (confidently?) on AK/AQ reminds me of when you see bad players writing in chat box on table, "I put you on AK" (or 'put them on AK')... when they suckout after getting it in real bad.

On 30 effective bb's there's no way I'm flatting a player's 3-bet in this spot with K8o. (< this was your first mistake.... not the one I mentioned above which was your 2nd). If you have some magical read that puts villain on AK/AQ why would you consider flatting with a dominated K8o (that plays like trash). If you were deeper I could see flatting w 87s, 97s but not a hand like K8o.

Find the fold button & move on.

BadB420 · Apr 13, 2014

Yes I would have to agree its both, but probably more of a mistake! I have no problem with you trying to steal the blinds K8o, seems like a good move to me! The problem here is when you call the 32k! I believe the correct play would have been to say a few choice words at your computer screen and then fold! I raise all the time but I have a very limited range of calling hands! Its ok to raise with a hand that you wouldn't call with, but dont raise and then call with it! The only thing you had going for you here was position so maybe that was in your mind when you made the call!

It's a tough break but I believe it was one that could have been prevented... Im sure had you known you were about to throw 68k in pre-flop you would have insta-fold! But you live and you learn, Ive made much worst calls in my playing days so you just gotta take it and make it make you better!! GL

dj11 · Apr 13, 2014

Mistake, NOT cooler. Extreme example of a cooler is when you hit a set on the flop and villain straights out, or flushes out. Any conceivable concept of 'Cooler' can NOT contain hero owning K8o.

left52side · Apr 13, 2014

Ok first what confuses me is that you said you were confident in your read on opponent. Well either of them hands you were confident on had you beat PF.
Now you seemed priced in to make the min 3 bet call,but still probably felt behind PF,if you felt confident like you say on your read.
Now the mistake comes in your confidence if you want my honest opinion.
You flop middle pair and get excited lol,but there are so many hands left that can beat you,and even if you were correct about your read on opponent then they would still have to over A/Q cards to your middle pair,and you would still be at risk,
Personally I think I would have found a better spot to get my money in.

Mistake, NOT cooler. Extreme example of a cooler is when you hit a set on the flop and villain straights out, or flushes out. Any conceivable concept of 'Cooler' can NOT contain hero owning K8o.

+1

hffjd2000 · Apr 13, 2014

I think that 2/3pot bet tells you he is leading on the flop.
I think the only hand he can fold by your shove is xJ /Jx.
Remaining hands, you are beat and he will call.

thatgreekdude · Apr 13, 2014

Poker Orifice said:
This ^ is the first part of the original post that I strongly disagree with. It's impossible to put villain on as limited of a range here in this spot as 'AK' 'AQ' (for one, is AQ even part of his 3-betting range here in this spot on 30effective bb stacks?). I believe your first big mistake is putting villain on a whimsical range... a limited range that you're just hoping he has (... has villain been 3-betting vs LP raises from blinds in the past? .... what is your steal % ? ... what is your fold-to-steal% (in villain's eyes)... have you been raise/calling 3-bets & how have you proceeded after flop?). Putting him (confidently?) on AK/AQ reminds me of when you see bad players writing in chat box on table, "I put you on AK" (or 'put them on AK')... when they suckout after getting it in real bad.

On 30 effective bb's there's no way I'm flatting a player's 3-bet in this spot with K8o. (< this was your first mistake.... not the one I mentioned above which was your 2nd). If you have some magical read that puts villain on AK/AQ why would you consider flatting with a dominated K8o (that plays like trash). If you were deeper I could see flatting w 87s, 97s but not a hand like K8o.

Find the fold button & move on.

i was stealing around 60% in LP, the guy in the SB was a bit of a nit, so i'm thinking if he had hands like JJ 1010 QQ would he not just of jammed pre to maximise fold equity and get me off Ax, Kx, the min 3bet seemed kind of reluctant almost as if to say i have a hand i'll raise but i don't want to get all my chips in sort of thing that's why it screamed AK AQ but i guess that range is way too narrow and i definitely made a mistake.

thatgreekdude · Apr 13, 2014

Karozi615 said:
mistake and a cooler

AT THE SAME DAMN TIME!

that bad huh?

thatgreekdude · Apr 13, 2014

left52side said:
Ok first what confuses me is that you said you were confident in your read on opponent. Well either of them hands you were confident on had you beat PF.
Now you seemed priced in to make the min 3 bet call,but still probably felt behind PF,if you felt confident like you say on your read.
Now the mistake comes in your confidence if you want my honest opinion.
You flop middle pair and get excited lol,but there are so many hands left that can beat you,and even if you were correct about your read on opponent then they would still have to over A/Q cards to your middle pair,and you would still be at risk,
Personally I think I would have found a better spot to get my money in.

+1

i was well aware i was behind but yeah i was definitely priced in to call and had position against what i thought was a limited range so that's not an awful situation, i guess if overs came on the flop he has to check fold or reluctantly call his jacks to a c-bet so i think i got unlucky in this spot but probably did make a few mistakes

teepack · Apr 13, 2014

thatgreekdude said:
i was stealing around 60% in LP, the guy in the SB was a bit of a nit, so i'm thinking if he had hands like JJ 1010 QQ would he not just of jammed pre to maximise fold equity and get me off Ax, Kx, the min 3bet seemed kind of reluctant almost as if to say i have a hand i'll raise but i don't want to get all my chips in sort of thing that's why it screamed AK AQ but i guess that range is way too narrow and i definitely made a mistake.

This is a classic example of overthinking. Fold to the reraise because you had crap and had to know you were beaten.

Scrover · Apr 14, 2014

You're getting good direct odds here, but the shove is questionable. I actually am okay with the call, but because you raised 3x the big blind and not 2.5x or 2.25x, you don't get to realise your equity in the hand because you would have got three bet less had you raised that amount. If you flop an eight, is it good? Does the person have an overpair? If you flop a king, am I out kicked. As soon as you get lead out on the flop, the shove is fine if you think your opponent can fold, but most of the time he will not because the flop bet is for a third of his remaining chips. We could have just backed down, but nope.

DGOOD · Apr 14, 2014

spiderman637 said:
i think u putting him on ak or aq after his preflop raise is justified...but after the flop, when he bets 2/3 the pot...u shoiuld have definitely put him on Jx...or over pair infact or trips...but then ur plan to shove over his bet with k8o was a mistake...because he would definitely call ur shove as he has committed aroud 40% of his stack already....that too pre turn...so i think its a mistake for u to shove there...

^agree with this if your plan was to steal... should have folded after he reraised... I think it was a mistake from the beginning

Carl Trooper · Apr 15, 2014

teepack said:
Since your intent was to steal the blinds and he foiled your strategy by re-raising you, you probably should have stuck with your original idea to steal the blinds, and when that became impossible, it would have been time to fold. Hindsight, of course, is always 20-20.

Pretty much this.

And if you were reluctant to call, I would flat his bet on the flop and re-evaluate the turn.

BearPlay · Apr 15, 2014

K8o? Fold pre-.

As played, "reluctant to call" means you ignored your poker gut. Middle pair on a dry board. Ugh. Muck post-.

Onward and upward

vic75 · Apr 15, 2014

You have 30 Big Blinds left so i would fold pre-flop wait for a better hand not going too beat many hands with K 8 off

AtiFCOD · Apr 15, 2014

thatgreekdude said:
Deep tourney 14k runners, down to around 35players, 6k12k blinds, I raise 3x from the CO with K8o hoping to pick up blinds and antes, sitting on around 30bbs, SB has 35bbs min 3bets me, so i reluctantly make the call for 32k more, i'm putting him on either AQ or AK and i'm confident with my read at this point.

FLOP 3 8 J rainbow

Opponent leads out for around 2/3 Pot, i'm almost always expecting him to check top pair to me here to allow me to bluff at it, so i read his lead out as a sign of weakness and shove all in over the top with middle pair decent kicker where i'm thinking even in the worst case scenario if he has AJ i still have outs to double up and he might not even call Jx, so i'm feeling good as he hesitates for a few seconds but then calls and shows a set of jacks leaving me drawing virtually dead. In hindsight i maybe could of flatted the flop and re-evaluated on the turn, is this play donk or? i know this is brief but let me know your thoughts

Tho I dont know the image of the opponent, I dont know your image at the table...my opinion is that the steal is ok. But calling 3-bet with K8o, nah...it's a fold.

jj20002 · Apr 15, 2014

I think the mistake was to put the villain on AK or AQ, actually for me it was a fold after he reraised you preflop

thatgreekdude · Apr 15, 2014

alright guys i'm now officially aware that i suck absurd amounts with the amount of people saying it was a mistake

at least i made that mistake and learned from it..

BearPlay · Apr 15, 2014

thatgreekdude said:
alright guys i'm now officially aware that i suck absurd amounts with the amount of people saying it was a mistake at least i made that mistake and learned from it..

Oh I don't think you suck at all. I think you're to be commended for being able to articulate the setup so clearly and to be open to feedback. There are so many egos in poker. The fact that you asked for support, and now you are willing to adopt the lessons learned, show remarkable traits about you.

As you said, we all make mistakes. Learning from them is 99% of this game.

I have a feeling that you're going to show us all one day how to really play this game. I'm rooting for you.

thatgreekdude · Apr 15, 2014

BearPlay said:
Oh I don't think you suck at all. I think you're to be commended for being able to articulate the setup so clearly and to be open to feedback. There are so many egos in poker. The fact that you asked for support, and now you are willing to adopt the lessons learned, show remarkable traits about you.

As you said, we all make mistakes. Learning from them is 99% of this game.

I have a feeling that you're going to show us all one day how to really play this game. I'm rooting for you.

haha thanks for your kind words,you're awesome! the way i see it is i've still got long ways to go to improve and get better, i don't think there's any poker player out there who isn't learning something new every single time they play!

Mistake or cooler?

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