Mistake?

Rldetheflop · Oct 29, 2009

ok we are down to 3 people in a 9 man sng.

chip leader has 6000 or so chips
second place is 4500 in chips
and I have 3000 in chips

The blinds are 100/200 and 25 ante

The chip leader is right in front of me and is raising my bb every time the button folds.

button folds and sure enough chip leader raises. I have K 10 hearts and decide i have to play back at some point or I will blind out

I shove my stack thinking unless he really has a hand he cant call since a call and a loss puts him as the short stack instead of the chip leader

he calls me with A 2 off suit and wins the hand busting me out in 3rd.

My question is who made the bigger mistake. I mean i know its easy to say me since i was behind and it ended up busting me out but I just dont see how a decent player can call with A 2 right there.

Jack Daniels · Oct 29, 2009

Villian's range is obv very wide here. You're over 3:2 favorite to win against a purely random hand and even if you limit him to raising with only the top 50% of hands you're still a 55:45 favorite to win. Assuming the bets were standard-ish (he raised to 600-700 and you shoved for 3k), then his A2 call was pretty loose considering he's seen you fold many other times when he raised. So now, after all those folds, he raises and you shove...if he's paying even half attention he should give you at least a little credit for some kind of hand. Even if you just have Ax you have him crushed. Poor call by villian there imo...even if he thinks you'd make this move with just the top 50% of hands then he's still a slight dog.

nevadanick · Oct 29, 2009

Agree with JD in principal, but you do not tell us what stakes you were playing. Buy-in amounts often determine what villains and other players will do in any given situation.

online poker, including 9-man SnG's is loose in almost every case. Players are or 'may be' playing multi-tables of SnG's just like the ring players and can't ever seem to have enough tables active to satisfy their ADD.

At low stakes, it seems that money means very little to a majority of players. They are of the mindset that it is cheap 'interactive' entertainment and make plays that will often include playing for stacks based on having ANY A,x.

You state: "I just dont see how a decent player can call with A 2 right there" ... First, who says villain is a 'decent' player? 'How' can he do it? It's easy ... he won the hand, didn't he? As I mentioned, sometimes any A,x will do. There is also a misguided (imo) strategy employed here .... villain believes in being overly aggressive as chip leader, or maybe even in any chip position when it's nearing the HU play. You were folding regularly which might have villain convinced your play was weak and he had been profitting from bullying.

There are a lot of players who will push any and all hands when they get to this point in a small STT or MTT. It's online anonymous poker. Players do not have to sit across from other players face to face. Many are willing to play online based on luck alone in marginal situations and calls, especially if they are the current chip leader. Their tourney/SnG life wasn't on the line ... YOURS was. They have found that bullying picks up a lot of chips that seem (to them) to make up for the losses they suffer when their slight doggish hand does not hit. It's the nature of online poker... pure and simple.

Rldetheflop · Oct 29, 2009

yea it was a standard raise as he always raised 3x bb unless he had a big hand in which he would limp or min raise.(I laughed at this pattern as the game progressed and it was clear) If he had raised say 5 bb i would have thought he had less than nothing but would figure he is too deep in to fold anyway and i wouldnt have tried it.

Rldetheflop · Oct 29, 2009

nevadanick said:
Agree with JD in principal, but you do not tell us what stakes you were playing. Buy-in amounts often determine what villains and other players will do in any given situation.

Online poker, including 9-man SnG's is loose in almost every case. Players are or 'may be' playing multi-tables of SnG's just like the ring players and can't ever seem to have enough tables active to satisfy their ADD.

At low stakes, it seems that money means very little to a majority of players. They are of the mindset that it is cheap 'interactive' entertainment and make plays that will often include playing for stacks based on having ANY A,x.

You state: "I just dont see how a decent player can call with A 2 right there" ... First, who says villain is a 'decent' player? 'How' can he do it? It's easy ... he won the hand, didn't he? As I mentioned, sometimes any A,x will do. There is also a misguided (imo) strategy employed here .... villain believes in being overly aggressive as chip leader, or maybe even in any chip position when it's nearing the HU play. You were folding regularly which might have villain convinced your play was weak and he had been profitting from bullying.

There are a lot of players who will push any and all hands when they get to this point in a small STT or MTT. It's online anonymous poker. Players do not have to sit across from other players face to face. Many are willing to play online based on luck alone in marginal situations and calls, especially if they are the current chip leader. Their tourney/SnG life wasn't on the line ... YOURS was. They have found that bullying picks up a lot of chips that seem (to them) to make up for the losses they suffer when their slight doggish hand does not hit. It's the nature of online poker... pure and simple.

the table was a $5.50 9 man sng.

I agree with many points here although blinds were swinging around regularly and i had already bled off 20 percent of my stack waiting for a good hand. in retrospect obviously bad play but one thing i must disagree with you about is this quote "'How' can he do it? It's easy ... he won the hand, didn't he?"

winning the hand doesnt mean it was a good decision as we know ppl often win hands after making the wrong decision.

Jack Daniels · Oct 29, 2009

Rldetheflop said:
in retrospect obviously bad play

I would disagree; I don't think this was a bad play on your part. I think his call was significantly worse than your shove.

nevadanick · Oct 29, 2009

Rldetheflop said:
the table was a $5.50 9 man sng.

I agree with many points here although blinds were swinging around regularly and i had already bled off 20 percent of my stack waiting for a good hand. in retrospect obviously bad play but one thing i must disagree with you about is this quote "'How' can he do it? It's easy ... he won the hand, didn't he?"

winning the hand doesnt mean it was a good decision as we know ppl often win hands after making the wrong decision.

My quoted reply was supposed to be HIS thinking ... not mine

Online player ranks are rife with those who are 'results oriented'. They are more than pleased when winning from the underdoggie position. It's the thrill of the hunt, the rush of the win ... adrenalin junkies running amok !!

.... and you said it yourself ... "we know ppl often win hands after making the wrong decision." ... and THAT is why they continue to do it, sadly. Some would argue that those are the players we WANT at our tables.

Rldetheflop · Oct 29, 2009

nevadanick said:
Some would argue that those are the players we WANT at our tables.

I agree with this argument. These are definitely the players i want on my table. When I am sure i made the right play and the other player makes a bad decision and it ends up hurting me I just tell myself that its ok cause its those plays that are my money maker.

I was not sure I made the right play here however which is why I asked for you guys' feedback.

Maid Marian · Oct 29, 2009

It may have been someone like me...an inexperienced player...or someone guided by emotion, who will try to win at every cost. Sorry that you lost, but that's just the human side of poker. It's totally unpredictable at times!

Better luck with your next one...

The_Pup · Oct 29, 2009

His call is awful, not worth the risk. The only justification the villain might have is that your all-in is just a bit too strong to be AK, JJ etc and he's willing to go for the coin toss with just the kind of hand you have. The thing to ask yourself is what would you have done holding AA, KK? Possibly a reraise or call to get some action? You went all-in to stop the hand there and then, to say to the villain 'that's enough stealing, sunshine.' Maybe he read it as such and was happy to be a coin flip away from heads up with a 2:1 stack advantage.

From what you say though, they probably were just playing Ax thinking it was good because of the A in it. I feel for you though - it is frustrating playing someone like this and having your blinds stolen when you just know they've got rubbish, especially when they aren't that skilled and won't fold to a reraise. I don't think your play was bad at all - you give a good rationale for it. The trouble is, often the only good play you can make against someone like this is to get AA and lucky!

dcor · Oct 29, 2009

Jack Daniels said:
I would disagree; I don't think this was a bad play on your part. I think his call was significantly worse than your shove.

This.

Your shove might be marginal but his call was definately worse. Only reason I say marginal is that there isn't a huuuuge difference in stacks between you guys and you still had 15bb's with an m of around 10. Yes, you are shooting for first at this point, and yes, you do it by shoving. But even if he has 87 or A6, you arent that huuuge of a favorite or dog. I think you really can't do anything much different here besides be patient and let him dig his own grave. I am no sng wizard though.

rcrocketman · Oct 29, 2009

dcor said:
This.

Your shove might be marginal but his call was definately worse. Only reason I say marginal is that there isn't a huuuuge difference in stacks between you guys and you still had 15bb's with an m of around 10. Yes, you are shooting for first at this point, and yes, you do it by shoving. But even if he has 87 or A6, you arent that huuuge of a favorite or dog. I think you really can't do anything much different here besides be patient and let him dig his own grave. I am no sng wizard though.

Even if he has 87 or A6..... your thinking is flawed here imo... because depending upon he 'SIZE' of villain's raise he may or may not be pot committed by being priced in to call. If villain's raise is big enough, he will be priced in to make the call here.... so we can only win one way when we shove (we have no fold equity)... we need to have the best hand.

I'd like to give an answer but without knowing the size of the raise I can't.
Generally speaking though.... I would probably shove here in your spot (but of course that also depends... on my own table image for example). Depending upon the size of villain's raise it could've been bad call or standard call. Assuming he raised to 600.. and you haven't been re-shoving back at him, his call is real wide for sure (BUT... our mistake is not realizing this already prior to making the shove... this is something that we must take into account when re-steal-shoving on an aggress CL who's been raising often).

Jack Daniels · Oct 29, 2009

rcrocketman said:
but without knowing the size of the raise I can't.

Ahhh, but you do.

Rldetheflop said:
yea it was a standard raise as he always raised 3x bb unless he had a big hand in which he would limp or min raise

Based on this villian raised to 600.

spiderman637 · Oct 30, 2009

A simple advice from me...
In the position you are in, i would go all in only with an ace hand and dat too having a 8 or better kicker...
I may even try going allin with pockets...

ThomasShea · Oct 30, 2009

he did?

This argument can go both ways, but I believe someone should not call an allin after raising with only A2, especially after you folded a few times when he raised your big blind. Maybe you should've called and tried to bluff at it. Use position when you are playing 3 handed, raise big. The bigger mistake could go either ways, any ace 3 handed would probably have the advantage, but still I would not have made a call with only A2. Good luck next time.

FlopIt2Me · Oct 31, 2009

With the big stack bullying you every time your in the blinds, he is not doing it with great hands every time. So, against his range your KT is pretty much a monster.

You played it right. I would have done the same thing. You just got unlucky that he happened to have a slightly stronger hand than you. You weren't even that much of an underdog anyway.

Once you are in the money in a SNG you're supposed to play for first not second. You have to turn up the aggression especially if you are the short stack.

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