the million dollar sng strategy ITT!!

cjatud2012

cjatud2012

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Okay seriously now. While my expertise and experience in STT's are both pretty limited - I'd love to dig deep in a discussion of any aspect of a STT strategy, because no one is going to get better at this game on their own.

Sooo what do you guys wanna talk about?
 
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cjatud2012

cjatud2012

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lol no pies!
 
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WiZZiM

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Jeez, do they have enough pastry in that thing?


On another completely random subject. I'd like to know why people are not aggressive enough in STT's? I was the same way for a while, but playing "tight" doesn't net you any money.
 
Vfranks

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Yeah I know just go all in every hand while 24 tabling for a few hours and you are for sure to have a constant win rate IMO..I do it all the time in my sleeep.. I've trained my hand to just press all in, over and over with table ninja while sleeping.. it's like sleep poker-ing.. u should try it
the training is similar to learning how to lucid dream... I'll make a how-to vid on youtube here sooner or later...
 
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WiZZiM

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Yeah I know just go all in every hand while 24 tabling for a few hours and you are for sure to have a constant win rate IMO..I do it all the time in my sleeep.. I've trained my hand to just press all in, over and over with table ninja while sleeping.. it's like sleep poker-ing.. u should try it
the training is similar to learning how to lucid dream... I'll make a how-to vid on youtube here sooner or later...

Thanks for the sarcasm.

What i'm getting at is, it's the biggest leak i've seen at the 0-$10 level from most regs. I assume a high percentage of players will be regs here, so i think it's actually relevant. Playing tight early has it's merits, but a lot of regs don't open up enough in the midgame or late game.
 
Vfranks

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Yeah I do find opening up works well in most games, as long as you have the correct players to your left and not some maniac... which sometime you get in these lower levels. When the blinds are high enough I try to steal and sometimes even re-steal depending on the player and how the game is going.
 
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FLyby

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I find some of those maniacs at the 5.50$ STG. I find it is best to sit back for a round or two to get a feel for the table. I am not saying don't play your hands but be a bit tighter until you know what you are dealing with. Then you can make the moves you need to to get in the cash. I am very much interested in a discussion about how to improve SNG strategy. I play mainly $5.50 and since I got HEM I have played 67 of them and am runing a ROI of 27.7% with a 31.3% in the money.
 
cjatud2012

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Thanks for the sarcasm.

What i'm getting at is, it's the biggest leak i've seen at the 0-$10 level from most regs. I assume a high percentage of players will be regs here, so i think it's actually relevant. Playing tight early has it's merits, but a lot of regs don't open up enough in the midgame or late game.

ding ding ding, we have something to discuss, yayyyy

Are you talking just about shoving here or you thinking restealing too? Or even just normal stealing? Maybe I sound like a wuss but straight out stealing in a STT is kinda sticky, depending on your stack size you pretty much commit yourself with a raise and a c-bet. Maybe I ought to be more selective, or steal with a larger stack size?

I haven't done any sort of in-depth analysis, but I probably am not aggressive enough from SB/BTN, and shove too much from the earlier positions.

On a similar note, are players calling enough from the BB when someone in front of them shoves?
 
cjatud2012

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Yeah I do find opening up works well in most games, as long as you have the correct players to your left and not some maniac... which sometime you get in these lower levels. When the blinds are high enough I try to steal and sometimes even re-steal depending on the player and how the game is going.

imo stealing (i.e. shoving all-in) from the SB and BTN is one of the single most important skills in a STT, your first instinct should be to shove if it's folded to you. Restealing may not work as much in the late levels, but I guess it really just depends on the stack sizes and villain type, cause you're looking to have a good amount of fold equity, plus you want to have a good risk/reward ratio, i.e. you're winning a significant amount of your stack if you take down the pot.

I find some of those maniacs at the 5.50$ STG. I find it is best to sit back for a round or two to get a feel for the table. I am not saying don't play your hands but be a bit tighter until you know what you are dealing with. Then you can make the moves you need to to get in the cash. I am very much interested in a discussion about how to improve SNG strategy. I play mainly $5.50 and since I got HEM I have played 67 of them and am runing a ROI of 27.7% with a 31.3% in the money.

Thanks for joining our discussion! How many tables are you playing? Are your games non-turbo's?
 
FLyby

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I usiually play two SNG or one SNG and a MTT. I will also play some turbo but mainly regular.
 
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im a reg... with a problem that i cant seem to pass... i very well understand the basics of the game.. but seem to have trouble with making a profit it always seems i am breaking even or losing just enough to put a ding in my BR. NEED HELP!!!! CANT TELL WERE TO START WITH MY LEAKS???
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

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im a reg... with a problem that i cant seem to pass... i very well understand the basics of the game.. but seem to have trouble with making a profit it always seems i am breaking even or losing just enough to put a ding in my BR. NEED HELP!!!! CANT TELL WERE TO START WITH MY LEAKS???

Try posting some hand histories of spots where you have had difficulties - then members of the forum can analyze that and try to determine where you can improve.

That's the best way to get started.
 
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dwrec

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i dont know how to post up hand histories i just played 3 tournyes right now on pstars that i have now can u take a look a give me ur opinion... plus im not to familiar with the site and how to use it well
 
cjatud2012

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i dont know how to post up hand histories i just played 3 tournyes right now on Pokerstars that i have now can u take a look a give me ur opinion... plus im not to familiar with the site and how to use it well

Does pokerstars save hand histories to your hard drive? You can check by going to Options -> Instant Hand History Options. There you can click a checkbox that will have pokerstars save to a place on your hard drive that you can designate.

Once you've done that you can open the .txt file, find the hand you want to analyze, copy and paste it into a hand converter (https://www.cardschat.com/hand/) then post it into the Hand Analysis forum: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/

..

lol now that I'm finally back in the groove of playing poker I have like a thousand different questions.

Let's start with just one - let's say we're 4-handed with equal 12bb stacks in a 9-man turbo, how should we approach this? How does it vary when we have a nit/fish/good reg to our left?

What if we're 3-handed, same scenario?
 
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dwrec

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i personally think in a 4 handed action with equal blinds the agressor will dominate... dont be scared to get busted out.. choose your options wisely make sure it makes sense as if you were explaining your move to somebody :coffee: make sure you got a good read on your oppenent before making your moves.. obv.. playing against a fish you want to play a little tighter as he will call you with a fairly wide range but that could also benifit you.. its really confusing the hand history process i need help with shit..!
 
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dwrec

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3 handed pretty much same scenario yes
 
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WiZZiM

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ding ding ding, we have something to discuss, yayyyy

Are you talking just about shoving here or you thinking restealing too? Or even just normal stealing? Maybe I sound like a wuss but straight out stealing in a STT is kinda sticky, depending on your stack size you pretty much commit yourself with a raise and a c-bet. Maybe I ought to be more selective, or steal with a larger stack size?

I haven't done any sort of in-depth analysis, but I probably am not aggressive enough from SB/BTN, and shove too much from the earlier positions.

On a similar note, are players calling enough from the BB when someone in front of them shoves?

I'm talking overall. Regs rarely open steal with the right frequency with 50+ BB's 30+ BB's in the early/mid game. Most of them also do not open up enough once they get 12BB's and less. Most don't shove anywhere near wide enough from the SB/BTN. Also once antes kick in, many fail to adjust.

I steal all the time, and granted, it gets me into sticky spots, but i think it's profitable against the right opponants.

And the calling range is another issue i see with a lot of regs. Most of them in the 3-6 games actually call wider than the 16's (I'm talking bad, breakeven regs). However it still isn't wide enough. Against a normal standard multitabling reg, i'm pretty much shoving 100% with 10BB or less and 85% with 12BB or less. So when they call with stuff like KQoff it's totally fine, when you face good players who know they can call with stuff like K5off, then my range suddenly becomes unprofitable, and more importantly the player in the BB is now a nuisance i have to focus on and adjust too. It's important that we are that nuisanace. If we look at it form the BB point of view, while calling with hands as weak as that may not seem great, it has a lot of advantages in the future.

lol now that I'm finally back in the groove of playing poker I have like a thousand different questions.

Let's start with just one - let's say we're 4-handed with equal 12bb stacks in a 9-man turbo, how should we approach this? How does it vary when we have a nit/fish/good reg to our left?

What if we're 3-handed, same scenario?

With equal stacks and no distict chip leader, we should be able to shove super wide from the SB into most players. It's a time where we can be pretty aggressive. But of course it depends on player types and reads. We need to be pretty tight in the CO position but can shove reasonably wide from the button.

3 Handed, completely differant situation. Once ITM calling ranges and shoving ranges from randoms widen. So we are actually a little bit tighter in these spots. However we can still be pretty aggressive in the SB so we don't fall behind, but again, dependant on the percieved calling range.
 
Juniorsdaddy

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Here's a question I have always pondered:

What are the proper odds to call with the following hands while still eight or nine handed?

1. Off suit mid connectors (56off to 910off)
2. Ax suited
 
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re: 4-handed scenario. I think you need to shove really wide against BB from SB or BTN. I would think you can shove pretty wide from CO as well. To me, this is the spot where you try to create a minor difference in stack sizes with you taking the top spot. Then, even with only +1-2bb over the other 3 you can start to open even wider to try and wedge that stack gap open further.

If you get 2 uncontested steals in a row in the 4-handed spot you are suddenly in a position where you can dominate the bubble and vastly increase the odds of taking first. You likely sacrifice some 3rd place finishes by bubbling those rare occasions when you run into a huge hand.
 
loopmeister

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Here's a question I have always pondered:

What are the proper odds to call with the following hands while still eight or nine handed?

1. Off suit mid connectors (56off to 910off)
2. Ax suited

"Kill Everyone" discusses this at length.

Aside: This book is amazing. It has such a density of information in it, I have to point my reading lamp away from it, or it just sucks in all the light.

Playing those hands is all about the implied odds. The 5 and 10 rule is what they suggest: http://cardsharp.org/the-510-rule/
 
cjatud2012

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"Kill Everyone" discusses this at length.

Aside: This book is amazing. It has such a density of information in it, I have to point my reading lamp away from it, or it just sucks in all the light.

Playing those hands is all about the implied odds. The 5 and 10 rule is what they suggest: http://cardsharp.org/the-510-rule/

Isn't that mostly a MTT book?

I guess that still a pretty good rule of thumb for SNG's, but most of the time in a SNG though we won't have the necessary implied odds anyway, so it's usually a fold with connector-type hands. The other issue is that the small losses in our chip stack with these hands are actually pretty severe, while the small gains you can make don't lead to that great of an advantage, in terms of $EV and the opportunity to make plays in the future. So if you can limp into a pot after several others in late position with 66 or T9s, that's probably okay, but making a habit of calling raises with these hands or worse is going to have a pretty bad effect for us.

And a quick note about suited aces, they may be okay for the very minimum on the button in a multi-way pot, but keep in mind that flushes don't get paid off as often as sets or straights do, so you need very specific circumstances to play them.
 
OzExorcist

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Here's a question I have always pondered:

What are the proper odds to call with the following hands while still eight or nine handed?

1. Off suit mid connectors (56off to 910off)
2. Ax suited

To call what - a preflop shove? If that's what we're talking about I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the answer is it's almost never a call.
 
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Odds don't mean as much in a STT as they do in a MTT i don't think. The payouts are smaller, thus survival is of more importance than in an MTT where the payouts are large and need to take significant risks to have a chance at the top spots. So calling small raises preflop in early-mid is pretty much going to be unprofitable. Most players play too tight to stack off, and the implied odds are never very good anyway. And while accumulating chips early surely helps, not many players know how to play a big stack and may end up doing something stupid just because they have chips. So getting those chips early won't neccesarily give you more wins and the % it gives you isn't worth it, as you will have a lot of early finishes costing you ITM %.

And Oz- With regards to calling preflop shoves a basic outline is:-


*Getting 2 - 2.5:1 on a call, we need a good reason to fold.
*Gettting 3:1, we should never fold no matter how bad our hand is.

Good reasons to fold may include, having a medium stack but calling puts us with no fold equity if we lose. Tight table, can punish them later on in the tournament etc etc. Anything past that, we need a hand that is above our opponants range, usually dictated by ICM. Odds actually let us make looser calls as there is more dead money in the pot.
^^Very situational of course^^
 
Bwammo

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Yeah I do find opening up works well in most games, as long as you have the correct players to your left and not some maniac... which sometime you get in these lower levels. When the blinds are high enough I try to steal and sometimes even re-steal depending on the player and how the game is going.

+100000

This is a great description of basic domination in STTs. Alter your play based on your opponents, keep busy, and make sure you're in position if you want to see a flop in any capacity.

imo stealing (i.e. shoving all-in) from the SB and BTN is one of the single most important skills in a STT, your first instinct should be to shove if it's folded to you. Restealing may not work as much in the late levels, but I guess it really just depends on the stack sizes and villain type, cause you're looking to have a good amount of fold equity, plus you want to have a good risk/reward ratio, i.e. you're winning a significant amount of your stack if you take down the pot.

IMO stealing via all-in is what everyone knows how to do these days, so it's not as important these days as it used to be. People are also calling wider than they used to be, for the same reasons. For me, and what generally bridges the gap for my students is when we are raising in LP when folded to, but are NOT stealing. We are enticing play from weak hands/weak players in the blinds. We then are allowed to see flops in position with whatever our preflop raising range is(usually it'll be top 30-35% so if we hit something it's semi respectable). When we see the flops in this manner, we're dealing with smaller pots on average but more of them. This allows for much more "small ball," which ultimately diminishes the chances that variance kicks you in the balls.

Let's start with just one - let's say we're 4-handed with equal 12bb stacks in a 9-man turbo, how should we approach this? How does it vary when we have a nit/fish/good reg to our left?

What if we're 3-handed, same scenario?

4 handed if we're all even, the things to pay attention to are the stats of our opponents and possibly the sharkscope information of them as well. For instance, if we see 2 semi loose and losing players on the table, it's probably best to hang back and let the fireworks happen for as long as humanly possible...and maybe even longer. If everyone is roughly our talent level or greater, we should increase our level of risk on a general basis, which means more reshoves, calling shoves lighter, and making more steals preflop.

It's a constant adjustment to the players we're up against.

And a quick note about suited aces, they may be okay for the very minimum on the button in a multi-way pot, but keep in mind that flushes don't get paid off as often as sets or straights do, so you need very specific circumstances to play them.

While I certainly wouldn't advise calling raises with weak suited aces...the fact that they're suited is a GREAT attribute. While it's true that flushes don't get paid much, and it's also difficult to hit a flush in a STT unless you catch it on the flop or on the turn...just having suited cards gives us a 20% chance of flopping a flush draw. Flush draws create many more opportunities to win the pot via semi bluff and whatnot. Even hands like 82s gain semibluffing value merely because they are suited.
 
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