Medium stacks avoid big stacks it's -EV?

sunirico

sunirico

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I've been consuming a lot of content lately so I don't recall exactly who planted this seed. It was something on the lines of top 5 mistakes people make in SNG or similar. If you have any idea please post a comment to jog my memory. He kept on repeating:

Medium stacks avoid big stacks it's -EV?

I would usually target the "big stack bully" even raise rags pre-flop only to fold when he 3 bets to prepare him for when I do have something that beats his range and he eagerly allows me to double up.

Now I get the point that it is not worth the risk, since he covers you and you stand to lose your tournament life. But even if you double up. it's -EV... he says.

I do know that EV in tournaments are calculated different to EV for a single hand at a ring game as it incorporates the earnings made at the end of the tournament. But what I can't grasp is how can doubling up mean -EV?

Anyone that can shed more light, please?
 
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trixie

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I'm not sure who posted that one, but IMO you're doing it right. If you can target a stack higher than yours and can get a halfway decent read on what range they play with, I say go for the big stacks
 
sunirico

sunirico

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I'm not sure who posted that one

It was not posted here on cardschat, I saw it in a training video somewhere... found it. It is from George Lind "jorj95" Top 5 Beginner Poker Sit-and-Go Mistakes[1]

...but IMO you're doing it right. If you can target a stack higher than yours and can get a halfway decent read on what range they play with, I say go for the big stacks

That was exactly my thinking as well but he says that the risk is too high.

Reference:
As the 2nd biggest stack you need to play very carefully because the equity you lose by busting is just so big compared to the equity you gain by doubling through against the big stack.
Now I am still trying to wrap my head around tournament equity and yes if you bust out you lose and earn nothing. I think it is considered +EV to aggress on the bubble because the chips you gain there from nits puts you closer to the FT. Doubling through the a big stack as a medium stack will likely take him out of contention and puts you closer to first place, similar to bubble aggression so how is this -EV.

According to him:
As the 2nd biggest stack you have a lot of equity in the tournament still and to be busted by the big stack is a huge hit and you don't gain nearly enough if you win a hand against him that its worth it for you.


How would you calculate this?


[1] http://www.pokerlistings.com/videos...5-beginner-poker-sit-and-go-mistakes-5d540510
 
DonSifu

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I think the best way to play against a big stack is to use caution, but also be aggressive when you have strength. Of course, as usual, it depends on how the big stack is playing; if he/she is in every pot; raising more than not, and generally being a bully, then yes you need to play back at them to stop such behavior. but if they're playing tight, only raising w/ premium, and really just not taking any big risks, then perhaps it's better to open up your range a bit, try to three bet and steal as many pots as possible.
The reason i love poker is that there is no 'right' way to do anything in this game, so ultimately it's up to you.
 
Grebbsy

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Don't play scared poker. Scared poker is bad poker. By all means respect the big stack (always assuming you know he got that stack by good play rather than donking out someone on a lucky board and doubling up...) but don't cringe. Any decent player who's the table chip leader can sense when the table is running scared of them, and will (indeed, should) turn up the aggro. Conversely, if the chip leader is savvy and can see that you aren't an easy victim, he's more likely to focus on those who are than on you.

Bear in mind also that if there's some dude sitting with a big pile of chips opposite you, that just means all the more chips for you to win off him! That should be your goal.
 
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Karametric

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know your big stacks, more than any other player at the table. If you see their leaks, they have more chips to give you than anyone else :)

Somehow when I am short stacked the big guy always has a hand to dominate mine when I finally get a shoving hand. A8 vs Ak,etc.

If they are a loose cannon who will raise and call anything, wait for a hand and shove him (and pray you get the hand to do so before somebody else does.) If they raise but back off to opposing action, reraise light. Not only will they fold a lot, but when they call (or shove) you have a much better idea what their range is.
 
atlantafalcons0

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The players you should "target" are the players with short/medium stacks and put them in tough positions. I would think it's -EV to "raise with rags to prepare the big stack for when I have a hand".
 
sunirico

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'right' way to do anything in this game, so ultimately it's up to you.

Hmmm I'm sure there are many pros who would disagree with this statement. You keep hearing phrases like "the correct way to play that spot", "they do not call correctly to my shoves", "money went in good so I made no mistake even though I lost".

I am still trying to get my head around the math and odds but this seems to be a clear cut right and wrong or in the "right" terms profitable and not profitable plays. Going so far as to say that if you folded a hand you would've lost regardless because it would win 1/3 of the time and you had favourable pot odds of 1/6. So you lost even though you didn't lose... it's boggling. =)
 
sunirico

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Don't play scared poker. Scared poker is bad poker. (...snip...)

I agree 100% with what you are saying but this is not so much tiptoeing as strategically avoiding confrontation with stacks that cover you.

Bear in mind also that if there's some dude sitting with a big pile of chips opposite you, that just means all the more chips for you to win off him! That should be your goal.

This is exactly the way I was looking at it and because this person is prominent and frequently in play you have to work out a strategy and find a spot to double up. But according to this pro we should instead be focusing on the smaller stacks.

Remember this is in a EV perspective as it relates to tournament payout structures. If you consume the smaller stacks you also remove another player increasing your EV without risking your own tournament life. Doubling up into a larger stack does not remove a player and even though you have more chips it's considered -EV. (not sure why) The main factor is the fact that you are risking your own tournament life unnecessarily which makes a lot of sense.
 
sunirico

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know your big stacks, more than any other player at the table. If you see their leaks, they have more chips to give you than anyone else :)

Somehow when I am short stacked the big guy always has a hand to dominate mine when I finally get a shoving hand. A8 vs Ak,etc.

If they are a loose cannon who will raise and call anything, wait for a hand and shove him (and pray you get the hand to do so before somebody else does.) If they raise but back off to opposing action, reraise light. Not only will they fold a lot, but when they call (or shove) you have a much better idea what their range is.

Yes I agree but even if you have his range down to a T, this is poker and A8 can cooler your AK any day. Against a short stack you lose a few chips but against the big stack you are done, is it worth it only because they have more chips?
 
sunirico

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The players you should "target" are the players with short/medium stacks and put them in tough positions. I would think it's -EV to "raise with rags to prepare the big stack for when I have a hand".

I don't mind paying for information now which I can turn into profit in another position. You were going to fold the rags anyway spending 2BB to test the waters is a small prize to pay.

Another spot where I find it helps to spew a bit is when someone keeps stealing your blinds. Call and min raise (donk bet) out of the gun only to fold when they inevitably re-raise, but usually after a brief pause to consider what just happened lol. They tend to avoid you after that leaving you with your blinds every orbit. This sounds very much like +EV too, would you agree?
 
sunirico

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I have been playing with this concept in mind and found some interesting advantages to avoiding the big stacks. Look with some you have to show that you are not to be messed with but they are just as wary of you remember so you can reach an understanding that this pond is big enough for the both of you. We quickly reach an understanding and take turns on the board.


Since I am not focused on the bully anymore I find ways to exploit the other players more.

Having more than one dominant player ensures that the small stacks stay in line. This is drastically different to when you just concurred the big stack and every tom & dic now wants to try their luck with you.

You get through the field of smaller stacks much quicker and they tend to focus on each other as easier targets.

There is less "revenge play" as the small stacks you beat have to leave but when you double up into a big stack you have someone now gunning for you.

When you lose a hand it is marginal and you win it back anyway so it doesn't matter much.

Since we have an unspoken understanding this remains throughout the rest of the tournament almost like you have an ally focusing on everyone else.

But it may also be my imagination...
 
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