Maybe I Should Just Quit?

ssbn743 · Dec 15, 2013

I have been playing poker semi-seriously now for 5 years; I mean I have a day job and could not possibly make a living at the poker stakes I play at; nonetheless I have been a decent player for 5 years.

I started my poker bankroll in 2009 with $20K and am nearly entirely a tournament player. I don't have the luxury of supplementing my play with cash games since, here in Colorado, those games suck. $1/$2 to $100 because there is a $100 max-bet law in effect. We all know that we can only reasonably expect to win about 3-4BB per 100 hands, or $4/hour at these stakes. Quite frankly, I don’t have the patience for that and easily leak $8 every $100 hands. So I occasionally, play cash just to kill time, and it’s more like Bingo anyway because no one cares about the $2BB, limp, limp, limp, call, call, call…the point is I don’t waste my time trying to make any money at Colorado cash games. There are bigger games, like $30/$60 but with a $100 max bet I can’t even make a legal raise – to me it’s a moot point; though I know several regular players that play that game and consistently do well, at least that’s what they say.

Yesterday I played in a $500 dollar deep stack tournament that’s part of a locally run tournament series called the CPC (Colorado Poker Classic). I lost in horrific fashion, again, and am quite frustrated by it.

One player in particular was as weak as they come. We started with $40K and he got involved in a hand very early on that he ended up winning and more than doubling up. He had

and made a set on the flop with a

board. He flat called a large flop bet and a large turn bet to the point where he had 60% of his stack invested. It went

on the turn and river and he ended up flat calling a large river bet and cracking a flopped nut-flush. Then he said, “Man that 3 on the river was a miracle” as I’m just in awe of how the money got in and how lucky he got and how terribly he played his hand.

So he then had about $90K. We played for 7 hours and in that time he raised exactly twice to ridiculous 10x amounts, everyone folded both times and he won the blinds; I’m sure he was thinking “finally I won with Jacks”. Yet he limped in nearly every hand and would routinely call pre-flop raises and 3-bets – but he would routinely limp/fold as well. I had personally raised his pre-flop limps at least 3 times and there were several other players taking advantage as well. We just returned from the dinner break when the following hand takes place:

Blinds were $1K/$2K/$300, I had $43K and my opponent had limped his +$90K stack off to around $60K. Everyone folded to my foe in the hijack and he limps again for $2K. It’s folded to me on the button and I find

I raised to $7K (3.5x with 20-ish BB’s). Both of the blinds fold and the hijack player calls after some deliberation.

Pot: $20K

Flop:

My opponent insta-checked. Over the course of the day he had been limping constantly, yet, when he would hit something he would lead out and bet and always a 1x or 1.5x pot bet. When he didn’t hit anything, he would check just like he did here. Additionally, he insta-checked, which is to say not a dark check but as soon as possible after the flop was seen. We all should know that is a clear sign of weakness.

I mulled my options over:

1. I check behind
2. I bet – something like $6K-$8K
3. I move all-in.

Options 1 and 2 both have the same problem, he gets another card. I’m nearly sure I have the best hand right now and his range is literally anything within reason – I don’t want him to get another card. If I bet here, I guarantee he calls and I’m in a really bad spot with a lot of turn cards. Plus any reasonable stab at this pot will commit around 30% of my stack. I choose option #3 and moved all-in.

My opponent snap calls me. “Shit”, as I let out a big sigh. “Well I really stepped in it here, what do you have K8 or something?” He shows

Pot: $106K

Turn:

River:

I don’t want to waste too much time trying to analyze this hand, I feel that I will lose brain cells and actually get dumber by attempting to do so. I’ll bet that he can’t even tell me why he did that – but he did and that’s that.

I am getting really frustrated and have been on the worst losing streak I have ever had; and it’s always something stupid like this. Equally frustrating is that fact that this was a $500 buy-in; this wasn’t the $40 10am Tuesday morning tournament; WTF!

So here are my numbers:

2009
BR $20K, 63 tournaments played, ABI - $135, ITM – 12%, Gross +$750, Net -$625, ROI -3.1%

2010
BR $19,375, 29 tournaments played, ABI - $165, ITM – 20%, Gross +$2443, Net+$898, ROI +4.6%

2011
BR $20,273, 21 tournaments played, ABI - $425, ITM – 24%, Gross -$165, Net -$1260, ROI -6.2%

2012
BR $19,013, 63 tournaments played, ABI - $325, ITM – 24%, Gross -$1706, Net -$1166, ROI -6.1%

2013
BR $17,307, 69 tournaments played, ABI - $250, ITM – 19%, Gross -$3106, Net -$5346, ROI -30%

Overall
BR $11961, 245 tournaments played, ABI - $260, ITM – 19.8%, Gross -$1784, Net -$7,499, ROI -41.6%

I am seriously thinking about quitting – this is a complete waste of time. I win and lose at the wrong times and I always have something absolutely ridiculous like the above example kill my hopes at a larger than average cash. The travel, lodging, and incidental costs are off the chart and account for a -28.5% ROI by themselves. I don’t think these numbers are really all that bad, that said, they are pretty pedestrian, but ITM 19.8% of the time, over 5 years isn’t awful; is it? I guess I just don’t have what it takes and am seriously thinking about giving up – it’s not even fun anymore!

sunburnt2k11 · Dec 15, 2013

i think you should start out in a lower buy in and play some more online card games. but that's just my humble opinion. good luck overall.

cotta777 · Dec 15, 2013

It would be silly to quit now having put so much time and effort into it.
It clear you have the organisation and the mindset for the game,

Sometimes every poker player needs to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and all the important factors in life outside of the game, learning methods, approach to poker, adjustments, refresh courses.

I gaurantee if you consolidated all your current knowledge writ yourself a list of imperfections in poker and in life and set yourself a goal of how to resolute these problems,
and track your progress . Your game will improve massively no matter how good or what level you aspire to play.

One last thing Im guessing your comfortable enough in life to have a roll of 20k.
maybe drop down the stakes play a few months at games that wont even make you blink if you lose, even smaller stake cash aswel as mtt - You will crush these games and get some real good positive momentum flowing in the mean time complete your goals and your targets on 3-5 weaknesses and imperfections.
Give yourself a routine make sure you drill the positive new approach into your mindset every day for life and poker

Lets say find 2 life imperfections and 3 poker imperfections/weaknesses.
When you come back to your current stakes I gaurantee you will Destroy the field

S3mper · Dec 15, 2013

$100 bet law??

WTF lol

30/60 with this law??

I'm so confusedddd

Don't quit if you love the game.. maybe take a break if you are tilting.. Play smaller MTT maybe take a trip to Kansas or my home state of Iowa to play every once in awhile to grind

Jacki Burkhart · Dec 15, 2013

Cotta777 gave some really great advice that I am going to use myself!!!

...And to the OP, you and I have very similar poker lives....

I've been playing "seriously" for 5.5 years..I've played cards my whole life with my family and friends since I was old enough to count...but I started studying poker and reading books a little over 5 years ago.

2008
Net win: +$1,898 ROI +367.83% 21 tourneys ABI: $24.50 ITM: 38.1%

2009
Net loss: -$1,209 ROI -71.37% 44 tourneys ABI: $34.50 ITM:13.64%

2010
Net loss: -$1,027 ROI: -34.49% 80 tourneys ABI: $37.20 ITM: 28.75%

2011
Net loss: -$1,037 ROI: -23.47% 68 tourneys ABI: $64.98 ITM: 33.82%

2012
Net Win: +$2,108 ROI: +42.83% 49 tourneys ABI: $100.44 ITM: 32.65%

2013 (so far)
Net loss: -$2,240 ROI: -22.39% 205 tourneys ABI: $48.80 ITM: 32.68%

2008 thru 2013 totals:
Net loss: -$1,507 ROI: -6.14% 467 tourneys ABI: $52.52 ITM: 30.62%

The only reason my ITM% looks so high is because that includes all the stats for the low stakes sit n gos that I play, usually online.

what I've learned is that I crush low stakes, but they do not interest me very much so I frequently take shots at bigger stakes.

We are not professional players, we have jobs so we don't need this to be an income producing enterprise.

Think of it as a hobby. Nearly everyone has a hobby and hobbies cost money. People who golf, or shop, or ski, or quilt, or fly fish pay some money every year to do those hobbies...sometimes thousands of dollars a year. They usually want to get better at those hobbies, they usually make their vacation plans around their hobbies, and they usually don't expect to make money doing it.

We have a slightly better situation because our hobby can actually pay for itself...

Even though I'm in quite the downswing, I don't intend on quitting. I enjoy it too much. I need to probably consider moving down in stakes for a while because all my wins seem come from cheap tourneys....For instance, I decided this weekend to play a $45 tourney instead of the $250 tourney that I really, really wanted to play and I ended up chopping first place!!! It's been a long time since I played such low stakes (live) and a long time since I chopped for first!

so....in short....keep your head up. If you enjoy poker, why quit? you are probably a better player now than you ever have been....

IvanShovski · Dec 15, 2013

ssbn743 said:
The travel, lodging, and incidental costs are off the chart and account for a -28.5% ROI by themselves.

I think that this is the real problem right here. It is very tough to break even while playing sub-$1000 buy-in live tournaments. The tournament fees are too high, the tourney structures tend to be poor, and the potential winnings just aren't large enough to cover the long-term expenses that one will incur.

ssbn743 said:
I don’t think these numbers are really all that bad, that said, they are pretty pedestrian, but ITM 19.8% of the time, over 5 years isn’t awful; is it? I guess I just don’t have what it takes and am seriously thinking about giving up – it’s not even fun anymore!

If you approach live tourney poker as an opportunity to travel and have some fun during your vacation time, then you really haven't done too badly when you amortize your losses over the five year period. I don't believe that any decent poker player should expect to do any better than you have done at these buy-in levels.

SANDYHOOKER KY · Dec 16, 2013

What exactly are you looking for? So many players make it seem they are out to become grinders and make consistent profits, and others state they play for the fun and any wins are a welcome bonus. The latter would apply to most players. The former requires unending hours at the tables, serious attention to the game, absolute control of emotions, and many bottles of Tylenol. I wouldn't quit unless i didn't have the money to play, which is not a problem for me as i absolutely do not deposit at any site since black friday. Many players could probably make a decent profit in the short and long term, if only they could maintain the discipline of bankroll management and most of all the temptation to get "even" [ A.K.A tilt] against a bad suckout. It's not easy to master your emotions, it's just human nature, but consistently profiting players have it under control. Tilt will bust a bankroll faster than anything out there. Good luck!

jj20002 · Dec 16, 2013

very bad luck

ssbn743 said:
I have been playing poker semi-seriously now for 5 years; I mean I have a day job and could not possibly make a living at the poker stakes I play at; nonetheless I have been a decent player for 5 years.

I started my poker bankroll in 2009 with $20K and am nearly entirely a tournament player. I don't have the luxury of supplementing my play with cash games since, here in Colorado, those games suck. $1/$2 to $100 because there is a $100 max-bet law in effect. We all know that we can only reasonably expect to win about 3-4BB per 100 hands, or $4/hour at these stakes. Quite frankly, I don’t have the patience for that and easily leak $8 every $100 hands. So I occasionally, play cash just to kill time, and it’s more like Bingo anyway because no one cares about the $2BB, limp, limp, limp, call, call, call…the point is I don’t waste my time trying to make any money at Colorado cash games. There are bigger games, like $30/$60 but with a $100 max bet I can’t even make a legal raise – to me it’s a moot point; though I know several regular players that play that game and consistently do well, at least that’s what they say.

Yesterday I played in a $500 dollar deep stack tournament that’s part of a locally run tournament series called the CPC (Colorado Poker Classic). I lost in horrific fashion, again, and am quite frustrated by it.

One player in particular was as weak as they come. We started with $40K and he got involved in a hand very early on that he ended up winning and more than doubling up. He had and made a set on the flop with a board. He flat called a large flop bet and a large turn bet to the point where he had 60% of his stack invested. It went on the turn and river and he ended up flat calling a large river bet and cracking a flopped nut-flush. Then he said, “Man that 3 on the river was a miracle” as I’m just in awe of how the money got in and how lucky he got and how terribly he played his hand.

So he then had about $90K. We played for 7 hours and in that time he raised exactly twice to ridiculous 10x amounts, everyone folded both times and he won the blinds; I’m sure he was thinking “finally I won with Jacks”. Yet he limped in nearly every hand and would routinely call pre-flop raises and 3-bets – but he would routinely limp/fold as well. I had personally raised his pre-flop limps at least 3 times and there were several other players taking advantage as well. We just returned from the dinner break when the following hand takes place:

Blinds were $1K/$2K/$300, I had $43K and my opponent had limped his +$90K stack off to around $60K. Everyone folded to my foe in the hijack and he limps again for $2K. It’s folded to me on the button and I find I raised to $7K (3.5x with 20-ish BB’s). Both of the blinds fold and the hijack player calls after some deliberation.

Pot: $20K

Flop:

My opponent insta-checked. Over the course of the day he had been limping constantly, yet, when he would hit something he would lead out and bet and always a 1x or 1.5x pot bet. When he didn’t hit anything, he would check just like he did here. Additionally, he insta-checked, which is to say not a dark check but as soon as possible after the flop was seen. We all should know that is a clear sign of weakness.

I mulled my options over:

1. I check behind
2. I bet – something like $6K-$8K
3. I move all-in.

Options 1 and 2 both have the same problem, he gets another card. I’m nearly sure I have the best hand right now and his range is literally anything within reason – I don’t want him to get another card. If I bet here, I guarantee he calls and I’m in a really bad spot with a lot of turn cards. Plus any reasonable stab at this pot will commit around 30% of my stack. I choose option #3 and moved all-in.

My opponent snap calls me. “Shit”, as I let out a big sigh. “Well I really stepped in it here, what do you have K8 or something?” He shows

Pot: $106K

Turn:

River:

I don’t want to waste too much time trying to analyze this hand, I feel that I will lose brain cells and actually get dumber by attempting to do so. I’ll bet that he can’t even tell me why he did that – but he did and that’s that.

I am getting really frustrated and have been on the worst losing streak I have ever had; and it’s always something stupid like this. Equally frustrating is that fact that this was a $500 buy-in; this wasn’t the $40 10am Tuesday morning tournament; WTF!

So here are my numbers:

2009
BR $20K, 63 tournaments played, ABI - $135, ITM – 12%, Gross +$750, Net -$625, ROI -3.1%

2010
BR $19,375, 29 tournaments played, ABI - $165, ITM – 20%, Gross +$2443, Net+$898, ROI +4.6%

2011
BR $20,273, 21 tournaments played, ABI - $425, ITM – 24%, Gross -$165, Net -$1260, ROI -6.2%

2012
BR $19,013, 63 tournaments played, ABI - $325, ITM – 24%, Gross -$1706, Net -$1166, ROI -6.1%

2013
BR $17,307, 69 tournaments played, ABI - $250, ITM – 19%, Gross -$3106, Net -$5346, ROI -30%

Overall
BR $11961, 245 tournaments played, ABI - $260, ITM – 19.8%, Gross -$1784, Net -$7,499, ROI -41.6%

I am seriously thinking about quitting – this is a complete waste of time. I win and lose at the wrong times and I always have something absolutely ridiculous like the above example kill my hopes at a larger than average cash. The travel, lodging, and incidental costs are off the chart and account for a -28.5% ROI by themselves. I don’t think these numbers are really all that bad, that said, they are pretty pedestrian, but ITM 19.8% of the time, over 5 years isn’t awful; is it? I guess I just don’t have what it takes and am seriously thinking about giving up – it’s not even fun anymore!

wow, from what you say, it was very bad luck because as you say the villain checks everytime he gets nothing an actually he got nothing in the flop (several projects but not ready) so he checked waiting for the develop

hero by the other hand, had a right thinking the vilain is a limper, he was waiting for a top pair he didn´t get so better shove and force the fold,

so why bad luck? because the best hand who could have with that flop it is the one he had, because he got 8 outs to complete the straight and 9 to complete the flush (2 outs counted twice), so he had 8+9-2=15 outs to complete a project, and we can add two more jacks, so actually he had 17 out, and with 2 cards to come he had like 17/44+17/43 to win (77% of winning chances)

but for the hero, the villain had a so wide range of hands (a fish) that hero could think otherwise, actually with that flop it´s difficult to foresee a straight draw, and although the draw flush it´s a possibility, the chances the villain had two colors to connect he draw was very small, so hero´s thinking was correct, no more cards for the villain, shove and finish this hand but the luck was agaainst hero clearly, very strange hand and very strange flop (the way which was connected)

etherghost · Dec 16, 2013

SANDYHOOKER KY said:
What exactly are you looking for? So many players make it seem they are out to become grinders and make consistent profits, and others state they play for the fun and any wins are a welcome bonus. The latter would apply to most players. The former requires unending hours at the tables, serious attention to the game, absolute control of emotions, and many bottles of Tylenol. I wouldn't quit unless i didn't have the money to play, which is not a problem for me as i absolutely do not deposit at any site since black friday. Many players could probably make a decent profit in the short and long term, if only they could maintain the discipline of bankroll management and most of all the temptation to get "even" [ A.K.A tilt] against a bad suckout. It's not easy to master your emotions, it's just human nature, but consistently profiting players have it under control. Tilt will bust a bankroll faster than anything out there. Good luck!

+100

RamdeeBen · Dec 16, 2013

I know it's live, but you 245 tournaments played and with variance being so high in mtts that it could be just variance, which obviously means you shouldn't quit based on that unless you can handle it. I could probably fire out 250 mtts per week and expect to lose a lot of the time, just to give you an example of how few tournaments that is. 1000's of losing or break even games are very normal, even for the very good players you see then losing more than that.

I certainly wouldn't be basing my decision based on your sample. That said, why not play online mtts to get volume in ? Don't think I could play live mtts only, it would be soul crushing.

Also, im pretty sure your ITM percentage is way to high. Your probably putting to much emphasis on just trying to cash, which is obviously hurting your ROI%.

okeedokalee · Dec 16, 2013

Wow jj20002, nice analysis, have marked you as an insightful play, not quite sure where the straight fits in though.
Some characters make irrational plays, whether they get bored or lose concentration, and some how they win hands like this.

Arjonius · Dec 16, 2013

IvanShovski said:
I think that this is the real problem right here. It is very tough to break even while playing sub-$1000 buy-in live tournaments. The tournament fees are too high, the tourney structures tend to be poor, and the potential winnings just aren't large enough to cover the long-term expenses that one will incur.

You're not factoring in the side action that's available at/during live tournaments. A number of pros play cash games to help offset or even to completely cover their tournament expenses although this obviously makes for very long days.

S3mper · Dec 16, 2013

ramdeebam said:
I know it's live, but you 245 tournaments played and with variance being so high in mtts that it could be just variance, which obviously means you shouldn't quit based on that unless you can't handle it. I could probably fire out 250 mtts per week and expect to lose a lot of the time, just to give you an example of how few tournaments that is. 1000's of losing or break even games are very normal, even for the very good players you see then losing more than that.

I certainly wouldn't be basing my decision based on your sample. That said, why not play online mtts to get volume in ? Don't think I could play live mtts only, it would be soul crushing.

Also, im pretty sure your ITM percentage is way to high. Your probably putting to much emphasis on just trying to cash, which is obviously hurting your ROI%.

FYP

IvanShovski · Dec 17, 2013

ramdeebam said:
Also, im pretty sure your ITM percentage is way to high. Your probably putting to much emphasis on just trying to cash, which is obviously hurting your ROI%.

I think the ITM percentage is actually OK.

ssbn743 · Dec 17, 2013

S3mper said:
$100 bet law??

WTF lol

30/60 with this law??

I'm so confusedddd

Don't quit if you love the game.. maybe take a break if you are tilting.. Play smaller MTT maybe take a trip to Kansas or my home state of Iowa to play every once in awhile to grind

Yeah, $100 bet law, crazy right? But it’s actually much better than it used to be. In 2009 it was a $5 max bet law. So you would have $1/$2 to $5 cash games that were complete and total nonsense. Even the blackjack was a $5 minimum and a $5 maximum; ha-ha, and the tables were always packed – that’s the best part! Poker tournaments were weird too; the first hand had to be limit poker. So we would start off, there were no late entries, and the first hand was limit, and then every hand after that was NL. Apparently, that made it legal under Colorado gaming laws.

Then in 2008, they passed the $100 max bet law that went into effect July 1, 2009, if memory serves. They then allowed craps and roulette in conjunction with the $100 max bet with the same rules as they $5 max bet. Also, the casino could now be 24/7, before they had to close from 2am to 6am I think.

One of the great tournaments they used to run was a $100/$100/$100. So 2, $100 rebuys for $10K in chips each bullet. But if you bought all $300 up front, you started with $40K. Man, I used to kill that game. All the casual players come up without knowing what they’re doing and thought they could buy in for $100, then they would rebuy, and then they would rebuy again, they would fire that third bullet and get $10K in chips with a $2KBB – it was beautiful. Apparently, someone got upset that the casino was helping the regulars out; no one used to win tournaments except the regular players for those reasons, basically, we had it clocked – then someone got wise!

But that all changed, and the buy-ins have steadily gone up as the poker room has grown. I really do play at the best poker room in Colorado bar none; and have been there during the growing process. It’s been nice, often times they ask for our opinions before they do stuff as well.

Anyway, yes there is a $30/$60 to $100 game and at a casino across the street. They allow 5 raises per betting round but the maximum you can raise is $100 per Colorado gaming. With a $60BB you can raise to $160, that’s it. And then when the pot is $600 on the flop you can bet a maximum of $100 and give each and every one of your opponents 7:1. I don‘t get it either – there are a lot of rich flounders that play the game so maybe it is lucrative, but there is no way it’s lucrative without some kind of angle, i.e. rich players that don’t know what they’re doing.

ssbn743 · Dec 17, 2013

SANDYHOOKER KY said:
What exactly are you looking for? So many players make it seem they are out to become grinders and make consistent profits, and others state they play for the fun and any wins are a welcome bonus. The latter would apply to most players. The former requires unending hours at the tables, serious attention to the game, absolute control of emotions, and many bottles of Tylenol. I wouldn't quit unless i didn't have the money to play, which is not a problem for me as i absolutely do not deposit at any site since black friday. Many players could probably make a decent profit in the short and long term, if only they could maintain the discipline of bankroll management and most of all the temptation to get "even" [ A.K.A tilt] against a bad suckout. It's not easy to master your emotions, it's just human nature, but consistently profiting players have it under control. Tilt will bust a bankroll faster than anything out there. Good luck!

I wish I could play online but as an American that is slightly difficult; unless I never intend on cashing out I guess.

I don’t have a problem with the hobby approach and I have had some good times that were a lot of fun at the tables.

I don’t really know what I want, but I do know what I don’t want and continually losing money even when I win is not it; even when I win I can’t win! I’ve kept it up for 5 years now hoping that one of these big tournaments would pay dividends, but truth be told, I have never done anything in any big tournament; I always get beat by some 21 year old jackass with a backpack on his chair. I feel like a .333 career hitter that is not going to have his contract renewed because he can’t get it done in October, or maybe a little like Tony Romo lately; not that I’m pretentions enough to actually compare myself to either.

I don’t intend on quitting either, but I may retire from the serious side of things. I’ll still keep records and all that just because that’s the way I am, but really, why should I? It has gotten me absolutely nowhere; I can’t even break even - I would rather not see the numbers; ignorance is bliss!

rifflemao · Dec 17, 2013

ssbn743 said:
I wish I could play online but as an American that is slightly difficult; unless I never intend on cashing out I guess.

You should consider trying Bovada. Cashing out isn't a flawless process anywhere for US players, but the point is it gives you a way to play, study, and improve your game by using a hand replayer and taking notes until we're able to play on Stars and FT again.

ssbn743 said:
I’ve kept it up for 5 years now hoping that one of these big tournaments would pay dividends, but truth be told, I have never done anything in any big tournament; I always get beat by some 21 year old jackass with a backpack on his chair.

Whatever prompted that comment can't be helping your game. If you are open to learning from one of those 20-something young guns with some big wins under his belt, I recommend Jonathan Little's tournament books.

IM deusXmachina · Dec 17, 2013

Although quitting will guarantee that you will not suffer to lose another hand that you will win 80% of the time(such as the flush the guy rivered you on...which I would not even consider a BAD BEAT since you wont even win 9 out of 10 of those) HOWEVER you WILL NOT be able to win any of the potential profit that exists from the diligence of your dedication...Only you can decide which path is the right one for you to pursue. Best of Luck to you in your decision!

ssbn743 · Dec 17, 2013

rifflemao said:
You should consider trying Bovada. Cashing out isn't a flawless process anywhere for US players, but the point is it gives you a way to play, study, and improve your game by using a hand replayer and taking notes until we're able to play on Stars and FT again.

Whatever prompted that comment can't be helping your game. If you are open to learning from one of those 20-something young guns with some big wins under his belt, I recommend Jonathan Little's tournament books.

I’m very big on and familiar with Jonathan Little. Certainly I didn’t mean that 21 year old jackass, just all the other 21 one year olds that think they’re Jonathan Little. It really annoys me when they buy-in to +$1000 tournaments but apparently can’t afford a hotel room and sleep in their car and keep a backpack filled with two-weeks of clothes hanging on their chair.

But you’re right, that attitude is not helping my game in many ways. Nonetheless, there is not a lot I can learn from the vast majority of this player type – most of them are just learning themselves, but already think they know everything. There’s a lot of the “I’m 17 and mad at my father” syndrome going on in that group; Jonathon Little is obviously the exception and provides lots of very detailed and insightful advice –I’ve actually been playing the Little strategy exclusively for most of 2013. Obviously this year falls short of my expectations but that has nothing to do with Little, just the Little wannnabes that stack off in ridiculous ways yet continue to beat me.

I used to play on FTP and was even on the top 100 leaderboard, for 12 straight weeks in 2006, on the original Doyle’s Room (before the screwed that site all up). I have lots of online experience and have done much better online than I ever have live. But live poker is more fun to me; not that I too wasn’t devastated by Black Friday but in a way it forced me to play poker where I really wanted to anyway. I never made a great deal of money online, in fact I’d say with the live poker numbers I posted on this forum, I’m just about even if you add in online play (I’ll check that). But I was pretty proud of that top 100 number. I do still have some money in Lock and occasionally play there for practice as well, but knowing I’ll never see any money I win kind of takes the fun out of it.

S3mper · Dec 17, 2013

^^^ That is called commitment/ bad BRM lol

If some one is willing to sleep in their cars (especially if it's winter) I think that just shows dedication and the will to not let anything hold any one back

As a past MLG halo players the story of pro gamer Tsquared "Tom Taylor" he use to hitch rides and sleep on heaters to get to events he became one of the most well known pros..

Guy laliberte use to live on the streets before he became one of the richest people on Forbes list

As a 21 year old I think that the "American Dream" isn't just something to talk about anymore I think the ones in my age group / my generation are chasing this more then ever.. Everyone wants to be the next Billionaire Superstar

EDIT: Also for some 1k events the hotel rooms sell out so some times people have to lol

ssbn743 · Dec 20, 2013

S3mper said:
^^^ That is called commitment/ bad BRM lol

If some one is willing to sleep in their cars (especially if it's winter) I think that just shows dedication and the will to not let anything hold any one back

As a past MLG halo players the story of pro gamer Tsquared "Tom Taylor" he use to hitch rides and sleep on heaters to get to events he became one of the most well known pros..

Guy laliberte use to live on the streets before he became one of the richest people on Forbes list

As a 21 year old I think that the "American Dream" isn't just something to talk about anymore I think the ones in my age group / my generation are chasing this more then ever.. Everyone wants to be the next Billionaire Superstar

EDIT: Also for some 1k events the hotel rooms sell out so some times people have to lol

I didn’t mean to offend anyone – it was just an antidote with some deep seeded personal history.

However, if we intended on playing serious winning poker we must realize that there will be some cost involved; you can’t run a business for free. There is a lot of value to a good nights’ sleep, in a bed, a hot shower, and breakfast before you intended on sitting at the poker table for 15 hours. Maybe I’m just not 21 anymore, but sleeping in my car is not even an option and would certainly affect my poker game in a negative manner.

Therefore, any money spent on such things is a good investment. We must keep things in check, and track our expenses, but also must realize that we WILL have expenses. Being from Colorado, when I go to Vegas for a $1500 wsop event I spend nearly $1500 in travel costs. Yet when I go to an HPT event in Colorado, I spend anywhere from $50 to $250 depending on whether or not I get a room. Last year I spent $3,187.37 on travel and spent $17,125 on tournament buy-ins. That’s less than 20%, plus, as should be included in any business plan, there are tax benefits received at the end of the year as well. I don’t know what the maximum number is but 20% of my tournament buy-in’s spent in travel costs is a very manageable investment; one min-cash erases that deficit. I suspect that most 21 year olds sleeping in a car at a $1, 000 buy-in poker event actually came to the event with $1,100 in their pockets and don’t even know what BRM means.

Sleeping in your car is either being unnecessarily frugal or proves that you failed to adequately plan in advance. These are two things any successful business man can never do!

Now if we’re going to go to Vegas for a $40 tournament and spend $1500 in travel costs we can talk about sleeping in the car!

Cokatoo56 · Dec 20, 2013

I think all players (well at least 90%) go through the same thing.
There are not thousands of negreanu or haxton.

is it reasonable to keep playing when results seem to show that you are a loosing player ?
You can have 2 approaches (just like for anything in life, sport, studies etc) :
- i'm loosing, so i'm wasting my time, it's time to move on to something else
- i'm loosing, so i have to put in more time and effort to turn to a winning player

Which one of these 2 options you pick is up to you.
I think there is no right or wrong. The first one just doesn't help you. if you quit, you will forever just be a loosing player.
in the second case, you can try to find new solutions to play against that player who plays funny hands such as the ones you described.
you don't know what goes through the villain's mind. maybe he's a beginner, and thinks he played his hand well like a pro like he saw on a video of phil ivey on youtube. You can't blame him for that.
After 5 years, that villain you described may post the exact same post on cardschat. more often than not he will loose betting with J9s.

Arjonius · Dec 20, 2013

ssbn743 said:
We must keep things in check, and track our expenses, but also must realize that we WILL have expenses. Being from Colorado, when I go to Vegas for a $1500 WSOP event I spend nearly $1500 in travel costs. Yet when I go to an HPT event in Colorado, I spend anywhere from $50 to $250 depending on whether or not I get a room. Last year I spent $3,187.37 on travel and spent $17,125 on tournament buy-ins. That’s less than 20%, plus, as should be included in any business plan, there are tax benefits received at the end of the year as well. I don’t know what the maximum number is but 20% of my tournament buy-in’s spent in travel costs is a very manageable investment; one min-cash erases that deficit. I suspect that most 21 year olds sleeping in a car at a $1, 000 buy-in poker event actually came to the event with $1,100 in their pockets and don’t even know what BRM means.

Sleeping in your car is either being unnecessarily frugal or proves that you failed to adequately plan in advance. These are two things any successful business man can never do!

It seems like you may be projecting your values onto others. I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but if others choose to act differently, so what? There's nothing you can do about your model 21 year-old's poor BRM, and it even seems possible to argue that his irresponsibility works in your favor.

Or am I missing your point?

S3mper · Dec 20, 2013

Think I'd like to go on record and say I played in a $1,100 dollar tournament and I slept in a hotel room =)

But then again I free rolled my way in to that tournament through satellites and used an Elite membership card to get a free room for 2 nights.. soo if I didn't do any of these things who knows maybe sleeping in a car.. Or walk across the street to my Grandmas house that might work too...

Xalorous · Dec 20, 2013

Cokatoo56 said:
I think all players (well at least 90%) go through the same thing.
There are not thousands of negreanu or haxton.

is it reasonable to keep playing when results seem to show that you are a loosing player ?
You can have 2 approaches (just like for anything in life, sport, studies etc) :
- i'm loosing, so i'm wasting my time, it's time to move on to something else
- i'm loosing, so i have to put in more time and effort to turn to a winning player

Which one of these 2 options you pick is up to you.
I think there is no right or wrong. The first one just doesn't help you. if you quit, you will forever just be a loosing player.
in the second case, you can try to find new solutions to play against that player who plays funny hands such as the ones you described.
you don't know what goes through the villain's mind. maybe he's a beginner, and thinks he played his hand well like a pro like he saw on a video of phil ivey on youtube. You can't blame him for that.
After 5 years, that villain you described may post the exact same post on cardschat. more often than not he will loose betting with J9s.

Maybe consider a different variant? One of the more numbers oriented variants such as Stud or Omaha H/L? You seem to make the right decisions, but sounds like bad runs at critical times. I've not played, but don't those games reward correct decisions more consistently than NLH?

Also, consider renting an RV for travel? Combine transport with sleeping in a vehicle (the right way). Or camping. Do some sightseeing or other activities on your trips to enrich the experience.

With the online cardrooms starting to open for the U.S., you could grind a bit, use tracking software to plug a couple of leaks and see if your ROI doesn't improve.

And have you gone back to the beginning? What are you really looking for when you play? Maybe go up a step and play fewer tournaments, or drop down and play more?

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