Low stack strategy?

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kalelisback

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Hey All,

Is KQ suited good enough to shove with if in position with around 8-10 BB. Or should one wait for at least an Ace high and circle a couple of more orbits?

I often find myself in this situation where I refuse to drop below 8 BB, not sure if im prematurely shoving. Is it better to wait for at least an A in these situations which may drop me to 3-4BB?

Im trying to adjust my tourney strategy when in low stack situations, just seeing how others deal with this.
 
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Fatman0912

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I find going all in with KQ suited from early position a bit dangerous. In later positions I would be more confident with going all in with those cards, but even then I think that in most cases I would fold and wait for another opportunity. It all depends of course on what kind of tournament you are playing (6 seater, turbo,..), and how far the tournament has developed.
 
This Fish Chums

This Fish Chums

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I have two ways of looking at it. First, KQ is good enough to shove with when under 10BBs. Your position at the table becomes less important when you've decided to be in a shove/fold mentality. Think of it this way, you have no further actions left so why would it matter if you were first to act after the flop since you have nothing to act with?
My personal preference, though, is to blind out slowly. I've made 1-3BB comebacks before (defined as getting back above 20BB). All it takes is a couple good hands in a row to get into it. When I'm below 10BB it actually becomes a mini-challenge to myself to see if I can strategically rebuild my stack rather than enter shove/fold mode.
 
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bellicoso

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Very interesting scenario... and Fish has given a very good response. Personally, I think I might call someone who forces me all in, but I don't know that I'd necessarily be the first to volunteer all my chips. Ten BB doesn't sound like much, but you can definitely work with it, I think.

Anyway, very interesting... I'm gonna have to see what I do now going forward! Thanks for a great question and good luck at the tables!
 
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KQ suited in position, is a strong pair and a strong situation, but not for shoving. If you want to do this then try a couple or an ace suited.
 
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ronn6583

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KQ without a position with 8-10 blinds is just the situation when you need to play through the push, and not wait. Of course, you can get under the domination of AK or AQ; face pairs AA, KK, QQ are the worst options, and in other cases it is a coin flip with a good chance to double. You need to make the most of the available fold equity. Watch how such a hand plays in tournaments and make your conclusions whether it is worth it or not.
 
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vittopio

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Of course, much depends on the stage of turnira-- but I can with a hand from late position even make a raise!
 
vox1er

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You should study the push-fold ranges for tournaments, you can easily find on the Internet,
I use approximately this range when my stack is less than 14bb:

early position 66+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KQo
middle position: 44+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, ATo+, KJo+, QJo
late position: 22+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o
 
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kalelisback

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This Fish Chums said:
I have two ways of looking at it. First, KQ is good enough to shove with when under 10BBs. Your position at the table becomes less important when you've decided to be in a shove/fold mentality. Think of it this way, you have no further actions left so why would it matter if you were first to act after the flop since you have nothing to act with?
My personal preference, though, is to blind out slowly. I've made 1-3BB comebacks before (defined as getting back above 20BB). All it takes is a couple good hands in a row to get into it. When I'm below 10BB it actually becomes a mini-challenge to myself to see if I can strategically rebuild my stack rather than enter shove/fold mode.
Click to expand...



Thanks for the insight!

I think the hardest decision between deciding which approach to take teeters on whether you want to be called by an opponent with "any 2 cards" or by someone that needs a "solid hand"

when blinding down to 1-3BB, I feel that multiple people with be inclined to call me, and rightfully so with semi-junk hands.

whereas, an 8-10BB gives some hope to take I may take the antes/sb/bb (and maybe limper chips) without a call, since a good number of opponent's stacks will be heavily dented if they dont call with a solid hand.

But I do like your will to challenge yourself to get back out from deep under. Its a tough call for me
 
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kalelisback

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vox1er said:
You should study the push-fold ranges for tournaments, you can easily find on the Internet,
I use approximately this range when my stack is less than 14bb:

early position 66+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KQo
middle position: 44+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, ATo+, KJo+, QJo
late position: 22+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o
Click to expand...


Wow....that's a very wide range for 14BB....but who am I to disagree :)

I guess I may be inclined to go with it in hyper-turbo tourneys, but in a normal one, I'd be definately inclined to wait for a premium hand at 14BB
 
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horseshoebhole

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kalelisback said:
Hey All,

Is KQ suited good enough to shove with if in position with around 8-10 BB. Or should one wait for at least an Ace high and circle a couple of more orbits?

I often find myself in this situation where I refuse to drop below 8 BB, not sure if im prematurely shoving. Is it better to wait for at least an A in these situations which may drop me to 3-4BB?

Im trying to adjust my tourney strategy when in low stack situations, just seeing how others deal with this.
Click to expand...


I feel you on this. Of course ICM is gonna play into it a lot... depends on what kind of tourney yada yada but I defeinitely feel you on trying not to get backed into a corner with 8bb's. Once I get lower than that I start feeling comfortable just shoving suited connectors and such. Just gotta keep feeling it out and develop your own comfy spots where you feel like you still have an edge.
 
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kalelisback

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horseshoebhole said:
I feel you on this. Of course ICM is gonna play into it a lot... depends on what kind of tourney yada yada but I defeinitely feel you on trying not to get backed into a corner with 8bb's. Once I get lower than that I start feeling comfortable just shoving suited connectors and such. Just gotta keep feeling it out and develop your own comfy spots where you feel like you still have an edge.
Click to expand...



Thanks, definitely the decision also depends on your feel for the table. All variances aside, I too am inclined to stay above the 8-10bb
 
vox1er

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kalelisback said:
Wow....that's a very wide range for 14BB....but who am I to disagree :)

I guess I may be inclined to go with it in hyper-turbo tourneys, but in a normal one, I'd be definately inclined to wait for a premium hand at 14BB
Click to expand...


this is a weak game , you will just constantly drop out of tournaments, it's not a cash game where you can fold each hand
 
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kalelisback

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vox1er said:
this is a weak game , you will just constantly drop out of tournaments, it's not a cash game where you can fold each hand
Click to expand...

I hear you brother. One of the strategies I have to work out in my tourney games.

Thanks for the input, appreciate it
 
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I would try to push with that hand, but not after a raise !!!
 
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Depends on your position at the table. Let's say only the big blind and the small blind are left behind.
 
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gryphon3005

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Your only options with that hand and stack is shove or fold. Nothing else makes sense. So if you are actually thinking about folding a quality hand like KQs then your opening/shoving range is so limited that I find it difficult to think you would get a better hand before you hit the blinds again. Clearly shoving here is the best play.
 
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JEN005

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KQs is a MUST Shove If You Only Have 8bb, Any Position

If you told me to shove KQs for 15bb when I just started I would panic because "What do you get call by? Pairs and good Ax, both of which are better than your hand. Shove so much to win so little or be against a better hand"

After hundreds of tournaments and after studying Nash Eq. Push/Fold Ranges I know for a fact that once you fall under a certain stack depth you have to utilize those ranges to maximize your profits.

At 8bb deep UTG KQs is a must shove, as it has so much equity. In fact it's one of the top ~6% best hands you can have.
At 8bb deep UTG a good shoving range would be: 18.3%, 22+ A7s+ A5s-A4s ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s 98s
At 8bb deep on BTN a good shoving range would be: 45.7%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K3o+ Q4s+ Q8o+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 76s 65s

It is wrong to wait for a premium hand at that stack depth as they are very rare, and more often than not you'll be blinded/anted off. Think about it, next two hands you'll lose 1.5bb (SB+BB) plus 0.1bb (or 0.12bb) every hand as a result of antes.

Not only does your stack drop drastically, but your fold equity drops drastically as well.
When you finally get AQ at 3bb deep, don't be surprised to get called by 57o as they have the perfect odds to do that. And even if you win that hand, which ~35% of the time you won't, you'll be back at ~8bb where you started.
Worse off, often times if you wait until you're completely blinded off, you'll often be put in 3way pots with any two cards, and that's not good.

Also never limp or min raise at that stack depth, unless you're occasionally trapping with a premium (but good players might pick up on that and fold some hands they might have called you shove with.)

To conclude, the folds you get when you shove + the equity you have when you get called (flipping against most pairs and most Ax) + blocking of the strongest calling hands make KQs a must shove from any position.
So don't fold your money away, shove!

*If you're near the bubble the ranges change drastically depending how close to the bubble you are and what position you're currently in.

I would recommend you to google for "Nash Push/Fold Ranges" for detailed ranges.
 
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kalelisback

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JEN005 said:
If you told me to shove KQs for 15bb when I just started I would panic because "What do you get call by? Pairs and good Ax, both of which are better than your hand. Shove so much to win so little or be against a better hand"

After hundreds of tournaments and after studying Nash Eq. Push/Fold Ranges I know for a fact that once you fall under a certain stack depth you have to utilize those ranges to maximize your profits.

At 8bb deep UTG KQs is a must shove, as it has so much equity. In fact it's one of the top ~6% best hands you can have.
At 8bb deep UTG a good shoving range would be: 18.3%, 22+ A7s+ A5s-A4s ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s 98s
At 8bb deep on BTN a good shoving range would be: 45.7%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K3o+ Q4s+ Q8o+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 76s 65s

It is wrong to wait for a premium hand at that stack depth as they are very rare, and more often than not you'll be blinded/anted off. Think about it, next two hands you'll lose 1.5bb (SB+BB) plus 0.1bb (or 0.12bb) every hand as a result of antes.

Not only does your stack drop drastically, but your fold equity drops drastically as well.
When you finally get AQ at 3bb deep, don't be surprised to get called by 57o as they have the perfect odds to do that. And even if you win that hand, which ~35% of the time you won't, you'll be back at ~8bb where you started.
Worse off, often times if you wait until you're completely blinded off, you'll often be put in 3way pots with any two cards, and that's not good.

Also never limp or min raise at that stack depth, unless you're occasionally trapping with a premium (but good players might pick up on that and fold some hands they might have called you shove with.)

To conclude, the folds you get when you shove + the equity you have when you get called (flipping against most pairs and most Ax) + blocking of the strongest calling hands make KQs a must shove from any position.
So don't fold your money away, shove!

*If you're near the bubble the ranges change drastically depending how close to the bubble you are and what position you're currently in.

I would recommend you to google for "Nash Push/Fold Ranges" for detailed ranges.
Click to expand...



Wow, great explanation.

You're completely right about being "back to 8BB" even if we double up on a premium hand when we drop down to 3-4BB.

Will get look into the Nash push/fold ranges. I think I'm on the very close to seeing some consistent success in tournament, these adjustments will definitely help.

Thank you
 
deform fedot

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low stack - you must catch dro and go push:icon_flow
 
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It is good enough to shove when no one has done any action in front of you and you are at least in the hijack position. 8 BB is not a lot of chips to be able to wait around. Plus many Ax hands are not great of shoving as some might think. I would rather rather shove KQ then A 2,3 or 7. Yes the wheel straight is possible but think of your opponents calling range. It will be heavy Ax and you will be dominated. Some dont think at all about calling ranges when jamming but if this were the case you could jam anything. You have to jam knowing you will have some decent equity when called. Many opponents will not call a jam in front of them with a Kx or Qx hand.
 
dimon4ik89

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It depends on what kind of tournament it is, what its structure is and at what stage you are. If there are few players left in order to get into the money, then it is better to tolerate. In general, when my stack becomes less than 10 bb, I play push-fold. KQ suited is a good hand, but I prefer to wait AK, AQ or AJ for all in.
 
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