loose table starting hands

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iamnothere

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What are your opinions on loose table starting hand requirements? 90 player mtt, early, 25c buy in.
Table usually limped by 5-6 players, if raised less than 3-4 BB called by at least 2, if more usually folded by all
Specifically, I had KJo on the cut off, had a 3xBB raise by 4th player ( highly aggressive so far ), classic move would be fold in early stage, but I called ( shown hands were mostly worse so far )...
After flop table was aggressive
 
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what is your question?
 
Beanfacekilla

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I will offer my two cents, tried and true. I have cashed in many an MTT, and I am not even a good MTT player.

Early stages:

Fold everything except A-K suited +. A situation may arise where it's cheap to get in with A-J off + for cheap - do it only in position. If you wake up with aces or kings, you might not want to get too pot committed. I know this sounds crazy, but you will more than likely get sucked out. All the players who will give you action at these stages are horrible players and should be regarded as such. They will take great pride in busting your A-A with 8-2 offsuit.

Establish a betting pattern (half pot every time you bet, whatever. standard preflop raise that you stick to, all throughout the mtt)

Middle stages (after first break):
Loosen up a bit, start playing some hands. Position is everything. Wait for good cards in late position. Be carefull with small PP 8-8 and less. Never raise with these hands at these stages. see the flop for cheap. Don't call big raises OOP EVER with small PP's. Somewhere around 10% to flop a set. That is not very likely. Don't pay alot to see flop with small PP's.

Hand selection should still be tight. Premium hands A-J suited or off + in late postion. Hopefully by this time, you have identified the players at your table. Especially the calling stations. Do not bluff a calling station. And it is nearly impossible to bluff a really bad player. A bluff is a story, represented by the cards on board. Some players are so bad, they don't even consider what a dangerous situtation they are in with middle pair. They just keep calling.

When you do enter the pot, raise if no one else has opened yet. 3x BB + 1BB for every limper. If you are already facing a raise, re-assess your hand, and try to put him on a range. If you can beat his assumed range, proceed with caution. Play in late position. I can not stress this enough. You should not play a pot out o position against any raiser unless you have premium (AK+). If you meet with strong resistance, and suspect a big pair, get out of the hand. Don't put yourself in a postion to lose much, much more.

Steal blinds when the time is right, with suited connectors, or two painted cards. Perhaps even nothing, but you need to be familiar with the table dynamics to pull these moves off. Consider your table image. If you play ultra tight, people will often respect your bet. However, if you try to steal and bluff too much, somebody will look you up eventually. Do not bluff often. Those types of plays are best saved for the late stages.

If you made it through the middle stage, and you caught some cards, you will be sitting on a nice stack by now. Entering the late stages the play changes.

Late Stages:
People are going to be stealing with all sorts of garbage. By now, the blinds are very expensive. A steal is a wise investment. People are going to be running alot of bluffs. Be wary of this, as it is hard to know when they really woke up with a hand. Position is everything. If you really have a good read, you might evan have to look some people up, and pick off the bluffs. I sometimes get a wierd feeling I am being punked, and re-raise. They often will fold to any pressure. Be careful with this type of play though. Ask yourself what does this guy want me to do here? Dissappoint him. If you looks like he is trying to push you out, he very well may be doing just that.

If you enter a pot, you should be raising. If the hand is not strong enough to raise, or you are early position, fold. If it has already been raised, re-evaluate you hand. Suited connectors on the button are great for multiway pots.

Post flop play is going to be essential at these stages. Position is everything.

Let's say you hold A-K off on the button. 3 limpers by the time it gets to you. Raise 3x + 1BB for every limper. One caller.

The flop comes Q-2-7 rainbow. Opponent checks to you. Bet your usual amount. Never check here. My usual amount is 40-60% of the pot. You might have to triple barrel c-bet all the way to the river sometimes. This is a very advanced and difficult play, and should rarely be implemented. The triple barrel also requires a strong read on you opponent. If you have not been paying attention to the behavior at the table, don't even attempt 3-barreling when opponent check calls. Check behind on turn.

Checking behind on the turn can be a smart play. Many opponents will check then smooth call the flop bet. Then they will check the turn. If you check behind here, they are forced to bet strong hands for value on the river. People always try to trap. They act strong when they are weak, and weak when they are strong.
However, most of the time (about 68% of the time), if you see a flop heads up, your opponent totally missed that flop. That is why position is important. For post flop play. That is why you raise preflop. To isolate, and hopefully take it down right there. But, if you go to the flop, it is only against 1 or 2 other players. A c-bet in postion is a profitable play in the long run against a max of 2 opponents (when checked to you).

I have derailed. I wrote a novel about tournament play. I am sorry, but I could not stop. If you read all this, thanks!

If you make it deep, and wind up with a big stack, don't take too many big risks. Don't try to pick the short stacks of when they push when you hold garbage.

Proceed to 1st place. Ship it.....
 
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Question is: if you are at a loose table, that gets limped a lot and played aggressively postflop, how to play?

BFkilla: read it, nice, you certainly know more than most mtt players at my level...most of the time I play like that and barely keep up with average stack, and prior to bubble do a lot of steals

One more question: I got AA at this table, 5th position, got a limper on 3rd, raised 6x, do you think it was too much?
 
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how much would you bet?
keep in mind, very loose table
 
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4x

i really think you need to work on the basics tho so go check out the golden archives for a start
 
Beanfacekilla

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Question is: if you are at a loose table, that gets limped a lot and played aggressively postflop, how to play?

SUPER tight. Only in position if at all possible. If you wake up with AA, raise the same as you would any other raise. you don't want to lose too much with aces, as they are beatable.


BFkilla: read it, nice, you certainly know more than most mtt players at my level...most of the time I play like that and barely keep up with average stack, and prior to bubble do a lot of steals



One more question: I got AA at this table, 5th position, got a limper on 3rd, raised 6x, do you think it was too much?

You establish a standard raise for any playable hand. You raise that same amount with aces. If you get reraised with aces, you should be looking to reraise all in during middle to late stages. There may be some at these levels who are actually paying attention. Don't give them any information as to the strength of your hand by raising more with big PP's. You will get no action, and will not get value from these big hands.

Post flop play is important to maximize value. If you flop a set, don't check raise on a harmless dry board. Lead right out, half pot. See if you get any takers. smooth call a raise. Re-asses the situation on the turn (any draws, what can your opponent have, etc.). If you can put your opponent on TPTK, don't push him too hard. Keep him calling. Don't blow your wad early. Also, if you get outdrawn (say four to a flush or straight by the river) you can get away cheaper.

Most of the players check/call or check/raise huge hands. They will likely assume everyone one else does this. Keep them calling. You absolutely have to get max value for all your big hands. This is essential to building a stack. A stack is essential in the late stages to bully small stacks, and abuse the bubble. The amount of chips you have is more important than the quality of your cards at late stages.

And finally, variance and luck are a huge factor in MTT's. You may be struggling to keep up with average sometimes. You may not make it (it is likely). That is the way tournies are. But if you follow the basic strategy (which calls for patience, control, and emotional detachment), you will make the pay more often. It is how deep you go that determines if you are a profitable MTT player.

This is all my opinion, based on my experience with MTT's. Take it or leave it.
 
wagon596

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A quarter tournament would be the same as a freeroll,,, not a CC freeroll,,, but one where there are crazies everywhere...Might just want to set back and wait a few rounds and let them put each other out. Slow playing any hand early is dangerous,,,these are just my thoughts.
 
Beanfacekilla

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A quarter tournament would be the same as a freeroll,,, not a CC freeroll,,, but one where there are crazies everywhere...Might just want to set back and wait a few rounds and let them put each other out. Slow playing any hand early is dangerous,,,these are just my thoughts.

Excellent point. As I was writing my initial response in this thread. I was dealt AA in MP about 30 mins in.

Guy to my right open/shoves, I call. Heads up to the flop we go. He rolls over K-10 hearts, and rivers a flush. $500 GTD., $2.20 buy in. Poof! - gone. I should have folded the stupid bullets.
 
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ok, supertight makes some sense, not that I totally agree...
but I dont think position is that much important here, players are loose agg postflop and will play you, so if you hit something will probably be all in with someone, regardless of who plays what first?
 
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first of all, we dont tighten our range when peoples range widen, we tighten ours. tightening up when people are playing more hands is the nut opposite of what you should do
 
Beanfacekilla

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first of all, we dont tighten our range when peoples range widen, we tighten ours. tightening up when people are playing more hands is the nut opposite of what you should do

Would you care to expand on this a bit? I respect your opinion, but I disagree with this. I would really like to hear your thinking on this issue...

I think it is wise to play the opposite way your table plays. If the table is all TAG, play loose in position. TAG players usually seem to hit it or quit it. If table is loose, I play tight.

When I play against loose aggressive opponents I wait for good cards. How can someone afford to see flop after flop for $2 a piece (or more if it's raised after you limp)? It is likely with marginal hands you are not going to make a hand, and it will be very tough to bluff.

I like to play suited connectors in multiway pots with loose opponents, if it is cheap enough to see the flop. That is the only way I loosen up at maniac tables.

I have no problem getting paid with monsters. It seems there is always action, regardless of how long it's been since I played a hand.

I play live holdem primarily. $1/$2 blinds. The way I play seems to work in my cardrooms. The competition is very soft for the most part. Terrible players. I am a cash player, not a tourney player. My earlier post describes how I play MTT's. I have went deep quite a few times live, and online. But I am not a very strong MTT player. Maybe because I am playing them incorrectly?

Perhaps you are playing much better players than me? I don't know. Enlighten me.
 
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first of all, we dont tighten our range when peoples range widen, we tighten ours. tightening up when people are playing more hands is the nut opposite of what you should do

"we tighten ours" should read "we widen ours". sorry shouldnt post and multitask so often.

The reason we want to widen our range is that we can play a wider value range against our opponents somewhat weaker range, the typical loose weak passive player will reraise us with only JJ+ AQ+ and nothing else, thats awesome because without these hands in his range and considering his range will be somewhere between 20-60% of hands we can now bet things for value that we couldnt v normal opponents, hands like 2nd pair good kicker become very easy value bets, along with this our bluff range should virtually disappear. so spots where we were betting 5% of the time as a bluff should drop to 0%.

also playing your statement is somewhat counterintuitive, at a tight table we can widen our stealing range for sure, but our flop continuing range should narrow considerably, also our draws now have far less fold equity and far better implied odds than normal which should make us want to play our draws somewhat passively, also at a tight table our value range has to shrink, where before we could easily get 99 in against a looser opponent, we can now only get in QQ+ (DUCY).
 
Beanfacekilla

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"we tighten ours" should read "we widen ours". sorry shouldnt post and multitask so often.

The reason we want to widen our range is that we can play a wider value range against our opponents somewhat weaker range, the typical loose weak passive player will reraise us with only JJ+ AQ+ and nothing else, thats awesome because without these hands in his range and considering his range will be somewhere between 20-60% of hands we can now bet things for value that we couldnt v normal opponents, hands like 2nd pair good kicker become very easy value bets, along with this our bluff range should virtually disappear. so spots where we were betting 5% of the time as a bluff should drop to 0%.

also playing your statement is somewhat counterintuitive, at a tight table we can widen our stealing range for sure, but our flop continuing range should narrow considerably, also our draws now have far less fold equity and far better implied odds than normal which should make us want to play our draws somewhat passively, also at a tight table our value range has to shrink, where before we could easily get 99 in against a looser opponent, we can now only get in QQ+ (DUCY).

Thanks for the breakdown. Maybe that's why I'm not so great at MTT's. I think it's a different animal. I will try to implement your suggestions in my next MTT next time.

At live cash tables, I play very tight aggressive and it suits me just fine. The players are almost always loose callings stations. So when I hit, I get paid (or I get sucked out, it happens).
 
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fwiw i think it also applies to Cash aswell.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I will try loosening up a bit at the table (in position of course). What kind of ranges are we talking about here?

What kinds of hands are good against loose aggressive, and loose passive opponents? There are droves of these players at the cardroom.

Thanks for your input.
 
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anything that flops well and has good equity v their range, obv all pairs but hands like KQs JQs KJs just play so well post flop in position where it flops so well and its pretty easy to value bet and get called by a ton worse.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Oh heck I already play those hands in late position. I think maybe we are on the same page. I just stay away from hand like this OOP.
 
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well thats a start, but frankly i play those hands at all tables, the looser our opponents range and the weaker they play postflop the wider range of hands we can profitably play for value v them and the wider the range we can play in position.

ie, A2s+ 67s+ 22+ K9s+ K10o+ Q9s+ Q10o+ 810s+ v a HJ/CO loose open (prob 3betting a bunch of our offsuit Ax)
 
Beanfacekilla

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Well thanks alot for the advice. I appreciate it. I will incorporate it into my game today when I go to the cardroom. I will report back with an update (if I win, I am on a wave of cold cards ATM).
 
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Thanks for the breakdown. Maybe that's why I'm not so great at MTT's. I think it's a different animal. I will try to implement your suggestions in my next MTT next time.

At live cash tables, I play very tight aggressive and it suits me just fine. The players are almost always loose callings stations. So when I hit, I get paid (or I get sucked out, it happens).


Think of it like this. If you think player As range is JJ++ AQ++ then you only want to play QQ/KK/AA/AK against him.
If he widens his range to say 88++ A10++ then why you want to tighten yours? You now need only 99++ etc theoretically, so you should be widening your range.

Now take that one step further and dont play one range yourself, play a range to suit whoever it is you are playing. Against certain players I know play very tight I have a very narrow range, but against a lunatic a much wider one.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Good stuff guys. I appreciate you breaking it down for me.

I kind of feel like this post might fit in here, as the thread has evolved somewhat. If I am out of line, and derailing thread, please accept my humble apolgies. I just have to yak about this for a minute.

I went to the charity cardroom today, and I have a funny story to tell (funny to me anyways).

There was this donk at the table. He was calling $20 raises (1/2 blinds) with hands like q-2 off, 5-7 off, any garbage you can think of, he was playing them all. He even cracked my set of jacks by chasing a gut shot with 5-7 off.

At this point (when he cracked my jacks), I actually asked the guy something like this:

What does it take for you to fold preflop? How much does it take? $80, $200, what makes you finally come to the conclusion that you should fold?"

He mutters some blah blah crap. I even saw this guy crack aces by chasing down a runner runner flush draw, 6 high in his hand. He paid alot of money to get there too. He had his entire stack invested by showdown.

So I just waited. A while later, I find myself on the small blind. Donkey makes it $10 all day pre-flop. I am already thinking he is holding a super big hand, because he never raises. He just flats EVERYTHING. So I look down at 4-7 hearts. I think to myself, "what a fabulous opportunity to felt this guy."

I had about $400 chips. Donk has around $100, BB has $400.

So I see the flop for $10, BB calls also. Flop comes 2 hearts, no other draws or big cards. I check. BB checks. Donkey makes it $25 to go. I contemplate for a moment, and I call. BB calls also.

The turn brings a sweet heart to the board. I know I am good, as long as BB checks. I wasn't worried too much, but it is possible BB made flush too. I check the turn, BB checks, donk shoves for around $50.

I then ask the dealer "All you can eat?" I am definately calling here, just wanted to make the guy squirm.

I call. BB folds.

Showdown: I announce "flush", I waste no time slow rolling. The look on his face was priceless. He then threw his bullets across the table. The dealer shipped the pot to me, and I said nothing. I did not gloat. It just felt sooooo good to felt this guy. He was even talking smack about how he is going to play ATC from now on, because poker has no skill, it is all luck (this was while he was outdrawing the whole table, and building quite a fan club about 45 minutes before this hand).

I know I shoudln't have done this. It was a donk play. However, my stack was deep as an ocean compared to his. It was worth the risk to me, just to felt him.

The cold cards are over. I left with just under $300 profit, and I feel except for me drawing the donk out, I played fantastic poker. I also used the tips y'all provided me in this thread. Thanks a bunch, it worked. I widened my range, and caught some very unlikely monsters. And best of all, I actually got action with these monsters.

Thank you cardschat and it members, for helping me to be a better player.

Peace.
 
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make sure you are aware of effective stack sizes, that fact he had $100 means 50bb eff, so i would fold pre. i would call deeper stacks wider but tighten somewhat v the stacks i have no implied odds vs
 
Beanfacekilla

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make sure you are aware of effective stack sizes, that fact he had $100 means 50bb eff, so i would fold pre. i would call deeper stacks wider but tighten somewhat v the stacks i have no implied odds vs

I hear you. I agree with you. I just wanted to felt the guy. I couldn't resist. Just had a feeling if I played those cards, dealer would ship it to me ultimately.

But seriously, thanks again for the advice.
 
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