Lo limit sng problems. (Need help!)

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hunden

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Hi

I have some problems to be a winning player on the low limit sng. My current roi is 0%. I have made 25$ on my game, and i played about 350 sngs so far.
On the level 1.2-2.25$.

I play short handed sng.
I play tight aggressive. But to play tight/agg no need to get good cards. But some sessions of 100 hands i get 5 playable starting hands, I'm doomedto lose from the beginning in this sng?

From the beginning i play tight, then i loose up a bit when its just 4 players left. When its 3 left i tend to be pretty aggressive.

And btw i this donks; i had 99 and the guy had 85o, he made straight.

I need some few tips like:
  • Style of play on bubble?
  • Good applications (i have tournament shark)
Or is possible to beat this low limit sng, sometimes i get the feeling is just a random game.

Maybe is a bit short but if you have questions please ask me.
 
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WiZZiM

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You probably need to amp up your aggression before you reach the bubble. Typically we want to take a lot of risks BEFORE we reach the bubble, this means we will have on average a larger stack than most players. Which helps with pushing other players around and taking advantage of extremely tight calling ranges. Or it helps us play more comfortably on the bubble, hoping other players will do something stupid and we can get into the money safely.
 
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8wondra8

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My strategy to low limit anything is pretty simple. Take a lot more chances early with low blinds. If you have over 50 Big Blinds take some shots with low suited connectors and crazy hands like KQ KJ. Try to hit a big double up before blinds go crazy. Hope this helps!
 
Shady Vision

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Pretty much as said above, loosen up early on when the blinds are low and hope to hit some flops with good implied odds hands like low pairs and suited connectors. That should help push you to a bigger stack size towards the bubble enabling you to play more aggressively against the tightwads just trying to get ITM. Being a mid or low stack at that point puts you at a severe disadvantage as you are forced to wait it out as mid-stack or shove/fold as a short stack.
 
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You probably need to amp up your aggression before you reach the bubble. Typically we want to take a lot of risks BEFORE we reach the bubble, this means we will have on average a larger stack than most players. Which helps with pushing other players around and taking advantage of extremely tight calling ranges. Or it helps us play more comfortably on the bubble, hoping other players will do something stupid and we can get into the money safely.

But are they any winning players in low limit sngs? Have not seen anyone with positive roi
 
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WiZZiM

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But are they any winning players in low limit sngs? Have not seen anyone with positive roi

In the 1.20's, i highly doubt anyone is even close to 'good'. When i was playing the 3.40 turbos, i saw like one good player, and that was out of around 3000 games. So yeah, none of them are very good in my opinion. However my skill level may be differant to you, or whoever else. I've recently moved up to the 6.50 turbos, and i have to say the skill level is slightly better, but it isn't that much differant, past that is when table selecting away from certain regs becomes really important.

EDIT: sorry i know what question your asking now. I'd consider 3.40 games micro, and i was able to put in around 3000 games at that level at an ROI of around 12%, so yeah, there are winning players, and it IS possible to make a lot of money playing SNGs. The thing you have to remember when playing these is that overall, the competition is a lot better than for example a 45 man SNG or a 180 man SNG. So, against better players we have to be better and push smaller edges/make less mistakes etc.
 
Robd3k

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In the lower limit games especially the short handed ones you can play a lot wider range of hands then you normally would in say a 20$+ SNG. I agree with playing tight agro in earlier stages but open up your range a bit and when the blinds get larger know your m and shove it in when you have to.

hope this helps!
 
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EDIT: sorry i know what question your asking now. I'd consider 3.40 games micro, and i was able to put in around 3000 games at that level at an ROI of around 12%, so yeah, there are winning players, and it IS possible to make a lot of money playing SNGs. The thing you have to remember when playing these is that overall, the competition is a lot better than for example a 45 man SNG or a 180 man SNG. So, against better players we have to be better and push smaller edges/make less mistakes etc.

Thank you for the reply.

As you might understand i am a bit frustrated that i have brake even game.
But i cant find it why its so hard to crack this level, i mean i have read moshmans sng, but its for fullring. I got my hand history stored on the computer. I thought making a video.
 
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Thank you for the reply.

As you might understand i am a bit frustrated that i have brake even game.
But i cant find it why its so hard to crack this level, i mean i have read moshmans sng, but its for fullring. I got my hand history stored on the computer. I thought making a video.

Yeah Collins book is a really good basic starting point. Start off by re-reading it!

Firstly, you need to understand that 350 games isn't very many games. We need at least 1000 games to even start working out if we are a winning player. Even the top winning professional poker players go on streaks of thousands of games where they breakeven or even lose money. Hell, i just finished yet another 400 game breakeven stretch, it's just part and parcel of SNGs.

One of the things that is working against you is the rake at your games. It's $1 + .20 for rake. compare that to the next level up, $3 + $.40 and it's a sizeable differance. What this means is that we need to cash more often to overcome the rake. I understand it may be due to some bankroll issues, but the plan should be to aquire a decent enough bankroll to play at higher levels where the rake is much better.

Apart from that it's really hard to give any sort of advice without watching your game, otherwise i'm just generalising, which rarely helps.

I'm quite happy to take a look at a couple of HH's for you, and give you a few pointers in what you can correct. Also, you can go to the 'tournament Hand analysis section' and post some trouble hands in there.

Apart from that, check out this thread if you haven't already. [old link~tb]

Should give you some more info on what to expect from SNGs.



EDIT: Also, you mention collins book is for Full ring. Well the only real differance between the two is in the 6max game we can open up our range a little more in the early game. The late game is basically the same, with a few little adjustments.
 
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hunden

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Well is this for real? Keep getting sucked out!
70/30 situations loost every time. I Pushed with 1010 he called with k10. Pushed with 99 called with 85os. He win. I mean it happens every day. If they **** me 100 times i barely **** them 30 times. AA vs J7 he made 2pair

Same shit different day.

Cant wait how im gonna be sucked out this time.

Sorry for the whine but...
 
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8wondra8

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Books are very good sources of good tournament play ideas. Winning Poker Tournaments One Hand at a Time is a great book vol. 1 and vol. 2. Just Keep Grinding!
 
Poker Orifice

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Books are very good sources of good tournament play ideas. Winning Poker Tournaments One Hand at a Time is a great book vol. 1 and vol. 2. Just Keep Grinding!

Pretty sure that those books would be TERRIBLE for what OP is talking about & looking for. I'm wondering if you read their post or if you even know what those books you've mentioned are about? (seems kinda odd/strange to recommend them on this thread?).

If there's one thing you'll learn at the super micros it'll be patience. Those same terrible calls you're running into (with the badbeats) are the same players who are paying you off time & time again. Yes it sucks but just work on knowing whether or not you've made the correct play...fk the results.
Breakeven results in super micros isn't so bad. I mean you yourself mentioned that you don't see any winning players in the games you're playing. (incidentally, there are a bunch of winning players in the $2 games... not all on the same table obviously, but I have seen quite a few who've played alot of the $2 games & then have made the progression to the $5's & $10's... and they have winning results (lots of them are from Russia & can be found on the tables at around 23:00 to 06:00).

One needs to make some pretty big adjustments to their game (ie.sizing of bets/raises, open-raises, etc.) when playing on super micro SNG tables that have a ton of weak/bad players on them. I don't know about yourself but I've found the SNG game goes a bit better when there's at least a few good players in the mix (not all bad ones) (Changes the dynamics). In marginally higher buyins (the $5's... if you're talking about 'reg' speed) the play is quite a bit different (usually.. or for the most part) and there's often a few winning players on each table (3-4 on avg.).
If you're rolled for them, why not move up? If you're not rolled for them but figure you might have a better shot at it.... why not try them?
 
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Sorry, I actually replied on the wrong post there... But, a book is never a bad recommendation. As far as the one I recommended would be for higher buy-in tourneys. Sorry for that post, but like I said keep grinding until you build a BR. Also, with donks of a regular basis like your getting your best bet is to just sit around and pick em off. Like I said before play loose to start, and aggressive as blinds raise.
 
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Pretty sure that those books would be TERRIBLE for what OP is talking about & looking for. I'm wondering if you read their post or if you even know what those books you've mentioned are about? (seems kinda odd/strange to recommend them on this thread?).

If there's one thing you'll learn at the super micros it'll be patience. Those same terrible calls you're running into (with the badbeats) are the same players who are paying you off time & time again. Yes it sucks but just work on knowing whether or not you've made the correct play...fk the results.
Breakeven results in super micros isn't so bad. I mean you yourself mentioned that you don't see any winning players in the games you're playing. (incidentally, there are a bunch of winning players in the $2 games... not all on the same table obviously, but I have seen quite a few who've played alot of the $2 games & then have made the progression to the $5's & $10's... and they have winning results (lots of them are from Russia & can be found on the tables at around 23:00 to 06:00).

One needs to make some pretty big adjustments to their game (ie.sizing of bets/raises, open-raises, etc.) when playing on super micro SNG tables that have a ton of weak/bad players on them. I don't know about yourself but I've found the SNG game goes a bit better when there's at least a few good players in the mix (not all bad ones) (Changes the dynamics). In marginally higher buyins (the $5's... if you're talking about 'reg' speed) the play is quite a bit different (usually.. or for the most part) and there's often a few winning players on each table (3-4 on avg.).
If you're rolled for them, why not move up? If you're not rolled for them but figure you might have a better shot at it.... why not try them?
Maybe i should stop taking risks. And play more conservative. I have also thought of moving up. Where the play might be better. PPl dont play like k8os.
 
Debi

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Maybe i should stop taking risks. And play more conservative. I have also thought of moving up. Where the play might be better. PPl dont play like k8os.

You don't want to move up where the play is definitely better. Those more experienced players will exploit your weaknesses - and they will do it with hands worse than K8os lol.

If the players are bad where you are playing be happy. Stop worrying about short term results.
 
medeiros13

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You are getting very good advice in this thread. I understand that its hard to take it in when variance is running against you BUT if you are getting your chips in with the best of it, the bad beats will stop.

Now, I have some questions for you. If you take a SNG game and divide it into portions (IE: early, mid, late) what is your playstyle like in each? Also, when you are getting short stacked, at what M are you thinking about shoving when you have initiative? Its always easier to blame our losses on bad luck or donks than it is ourselves...that's why I'm asking you these questions.
 
x2486

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My first suggestion would be to drop the $1.20 SNG's in favor of the $2.25's provided your bankroll can handle it. The opponents are about the same, but 7.5% less rake might be enough to get you to a positive ROI.

Then you should look into how you're playing based on position. Are you playing tighter in early position and looser in late position?

Finally, examine your bet sizes. Avoid giving your opponents the correct odds to call, but balance that with the goal of not letting the pot grow too large if you don't yet have a made hand.
 
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Now, I have some questions for you. If you take a SNG game and divide it into portions (IE: early, mid, late) what is your playstyle like in each? Also, when you are getting short stacked, at what M are you thinking about shoving when you have initiative? Its always easier to blame our losses on bad luck or donks than it is ourselves...that's why I'm asking you these questions.

Early: Tight, I never play like KJ or worse.

Middle. Let's say 6-handed to 1 player knocked out. And one player has lost half of his stack. I try to open up a bit. IE Kj in late position i would play this hand now.

Late: Lets say 3 players lets say i got 3000 chips (2xstarting stack). I try to play more aggressive . But this is more based on position i guess. If am short stacked around 10xBB i try to wait for a hand and ship it.

I got the whole hand history if anyone is intrested.

My first suggestion would be to drop the $1.20 SNG's in favor of the $2.25's provided your bankroll can handle it. The opponents are about the same, but 7.5% less rake might be enough to get you to a positive ROI.

Then you should look into how you're playing based on position. Are you playing tighter in early position and looser in late position?

Finally, examine your bet sizes. Avoid giving your opponents the correct odds to call, but balance that with the goal of not letting the pot grow too large if you don't yet have a made hand.
Well i moved up 2.25 i had 52 buyins at that level including rake. I and i played 2x2.25. I stayed focused in the entire game. I did not take any risks. I played solid poker. I could probably play any better. I won them both. In one of them i was them to 10 bb. At middle stage.

When the heads up face started i was behind 1:2 chip rate.

So i guess. Stay focused and don't do anything stupid. Will make you atleast go deep.
 
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You are getting very good advice in this thread. I understand that its hard to take it in when variance is running against you BUT if you are getting your chips in with the best of it, the bad beats will stop.

No, they really won't stop. As a good player you will experiance MORE bad beats than a bad player. Why? because we get it in good more often, so naturally we will experiance more 'bad beats'. This is what seperates a good player from a really good/great player, how to deal with those bad beats over a course of 1000, 2000 even 3000 games, to not let it adversly affect their game and continually play their A game when your losing buy ins, controlling tilt etc etc is probably the hardest thing about poker.
 
medeiros13

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No, they really won't stop. As a good player you will experiance MORE bad beats than a bad player. Why? because we get it in good more often, so naturally we will experiance more 'bad beats'. This is what seperates a good player from a really good/great player, how to deal with those bad beats over a course of 1000, 2000 even 3000 games, to not let it adversly affect their game and continually play their A game when your losing buy ins, controlling tilt etc etc is probably the hardest thing about poker.

I understand your point and you are right. To be clearer, my point is simply that the bad beats will slow down after your "bad streak" is over....you will actually win a coinflip or hang on when you're a 3/2 fav. I know there are times where I just felt like the bad beat was coming everytime I was a favorite when I was in one of these tough stretches.

I really hope the OP reads the last part of your post because that's good stuff. Its something I had to learn how to do in order to become better.
 
medeiros13

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Early: Tight, I never play like KJ or worse.

Middle. Let's say 6-handed to 1 player knocked out. And one player has lost half of his stack. I try to open up a bit. IE Kj in late position i would play this hand now.

Late: Lets say 3 players lets say i got 3000 chips (2xstarting stack). I try to play more aggressive . But this is more based on position i guess. If am short stacked around 10xBB i try to wait for a hand and ship it.

I got the whole hand history if anyone is intrested.


Well i moved up 2.25 i had 52 buyins at that level including rake. I and i played 2x2.25. I stayed focused in the entire game. I did not take any risks. I played solid poker. I could probably play any better. I won them both. In one of them i was them to 10 bb. At middle stage.

When the heads up face started i was behind 1:2 chip rate.

So i guess. Stay focused and don't do anything stupid. Will make you atleast go deep.

You know, to me it sounds like you are way too tight. Your play sounds so dependent on getting good cards and hitting the flop. You make no mention of suited connecters, gapped connecters, A rag suited at all. The most speculative hand you mention is KJ. You simply can't survive a card dead stretch playing the way you are. Watch your table; if its tight, raise up a suited connecter or A rag just to try and steal the blinds. (regardless of your position) Another thing to remember is that most players are multi tabling and/or bad players, so they have no idea that you are very tight and your raises should be respected. Now, you have to watch your spots when you start opening up hand selection and you'll be forced to improve your post flop play BUT if done right, you'll be a much better player for it. If you're not comfortable with all of these tips, maybe start by limping in with a suited connecter or gapped connecter in a multi player limped pot and go from there.

You sound a lot like myself when I first started playing. I was very very very tight and my game was only as good as my cards. That's not playing poker; that's playing cards. It took me a few times of going broke before I realized I needed to play poker and that's when I slowly intergrated some of the things I mentioned above (and more). It was a slow process for me; i'm a naturally conservative person so bluffing and being aggressive is against my nature but I've learned how to do it.

A few more random thoughts. You didnt answer me as to what M you consider shoving. Another thing I had to learn is the power of initiative. If you're down to about 10 BB's (some may go higher) then you should be shoving with any two cards....you'll be suprised at how often you can steal blinds that way. Also, the comment about at least going deep in tournaments isn't a good attitude to have. That's a playing it safe, not playing to win. I posted something similar in my MTT experiment thread and got called on it the same way I'm calling you on it and it's one of the better pieces of advice I've gotten in sometime. To win, you cant be afraid to lose...embrace this.

Sheesh, I had a lot to type. I hope that some of this sinks in and helps you become a better playing; I wish you the best of luck :cool:
 
the lab man

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No, they really won't stop. As a good player you will experiance MORE bad beats than a bad player. Why? because we get it in good more often, so naturally we will experiance more 'bad beats'. This is what seperates a good player from a really good/great player, how to deal with those bad beats over a course of 1000, 2000 even 3000 games, to not let it adversly affect their game and continually play their A game when your losing buy ins, controlling tilt etc etc is probably the hardest thing about poker.


^^^^^Priceless Answer^^^^^^^
I Always remember this when I get sucked ot on.
 
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You know, to me it sounds like you are way too tight.

I didn't bother to read anything past that, because it pretty much covers everything. Just don't overadjust and start playing recklessly loose. Start stealing blinds at 25/50 and beyond, and don't be afraid to shove really wide BVB.
 
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Bvb?

Okay guys i played 4 tournaments. 2 out of the money (both third). 2 in the money
One second and one first. I did as mediros13 said I loosed up a bit, which i say made more profit for me. However, i think that played good at all tournaments. But i have question:

This is a scenario that sometimes happens i call it that the bubble get stuck.
Let say we have 3 players. We all have around 3000 chips, the blinds are high 120/240. But i keep getting shit hands. Like 25o k4o. The problems is i cant make a move. Beacuse i only get dealt decent hands i am afraid of loosing my stack. But on the other hand i try to make small bluffs on the flop. So maybe this description of this scenario is bit short.
But i hope you understand.
 
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