Live MTT, Bad luck or bad play?

Hey people I got up a little earlier today to post details of the last hand I played last night at the City Cate. I had just busted one player and taken a good stack off another going all-in pre-flop with K6o. I got called by KQo and 33. I sucked out making the straight on the river. Not too much guilt as I felt I made the right play at the right time

So to the final table. we are about maybe 5-6 hands in and about 8 handed. Blinds are 800/1600 and I am on the BB, I have maybe 8 big blinds left behind. There is one mid position limper and I decide to check to see a free flop as raising with K6o out of position would seem pointless.

Flop comes down 336 i think all different suits or perhaps two the same. I am not worried about any flush or straight draws. Chances of villian having A3 or A6 are slim. I think he would have raised with 33, 66 or any pair that beats mine. I don't want to give a free card to let something scary come on the turn so decide it is right to bet. So far so good!

I think this is where I may have made the error. I bet 2.5k thinking this was about a standard 2/3 pot bet but forgot about the blinds and the fact I was out of position. I guess 3k would have been better into the pot already at 4k. If villian was a thinking player my bet would have probably looked weak.

Villian announces "all-in"... he has me covered. I have a difficult decision to make.

I count my chips, I have 5-6 big blinds left and considering we are 8 handed, I need to find a hand or I will lose all my fold equity soon.
He seems weak. Most of his range seems to be medium to high aces, high kings and other paint. Its a massive overbat and he seems to want to just push me off whatever he thinks I have. If I call and he has what I think he has I reckon I am a 75% favourite to double up and be in good shape for the money. If I fold now I will need a LOT of luck to survive many more orbits.

I called and he flips A7o! I am in great shape :d

2 hits the turn... all good baby!

and then a 7 comes on the river.

It stung. I guess thats poker :?

I shook his hand and sat there for a couple minutes to collect myself, said my goodbyes and left to lick my wounds!
Gotta just love this game!

Ok guys did I play this right? Should I have forseen his all-in move and just shoved after the flop myself seeing as I would be calling anyway? Should I have raised pre-flop or should my flop bet hve been larger?

What do you guys think?

Toby.

Me, I think all in here would be the right play, as villain might think he has fold equity, but I dont know the other stacks. If you were the SS, he must know you are calling, but if one or more are shorter than you, he may think he can get a fold here. But raising and being shoved on is not a bad result either, as he aint limping any PP 77+ here, so you are ahead almost always. But taking the pot with your all in would be a great result IMO.

I am saying this blind, as I have no read info. But as described, I am pushing here.

I guess that if I had taken the time to calculate the potsize properly when the flop came and realised that 3k was the proper amount to C-bet then I'd have shoved as I'd be commiting near to 40% of my remaining stack. Only a complete idiot would call me with A7o but then what kind of player would limp in with this hand from middle position at 12bb. doesn't seeem like smart play to me but then I am vry new to tounament and live play.

I think in future I should take more time to calculate pot sizes. Its hard to figure them out form a messy pile under low lighting!

I had to LOL at your location!!!

Seems like a nice warm place to be....

You from germany or just like the poker playin Fräuleins?

Don't worry. It sounds like this is one of your first live tournies. My first 5 I pretty much just nut peddled (you guessed it, I did shit).
But once you get the hang of it, your confience grows and you become a much better player. You begin to count stack sizes, think in terms of real poker. The next final table just think like you were online. Stack sizes, pot committing raising, shoving ranges, M etc etc.
As played you could probably stop n go on a dry flop (like this one) or just shove from BB. If he was gonna call an all-in he'd probably have shoved originally anyway.
Obviously stack sizes and blinds and even payout structure (i.e bubble) will effect the decision but you get the idea.

Nah I think your play was very weak. shove pre-flop because the way your playing your already pot commited so you make the shove and try to push him away . As for the k 6 off to hit straight on river. I think that was real dumb move in. Adjust the way you play. Just my thoughts.
Thanks Jon

jonjonR said:

Nah I think your play was very weak. shove pre-flop because the way your playing your already pot commited so you make the shove and try to push him away . As for the k 6 off to hit straight on river. I think that was real dumb move in. Adjust the way you play. Just my thoughts.
Thanks Jon

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He's asking for solid advice don't have to be a dick about it atleast he's trying to learn.

As for the K6 hand you don't know the stack dynamics, blinds, stack sizes etc etc.
He could have been button with an M of 3 vs. two very tight players in the blinds. Don't judge until you know the situation.

'adjust the way you play' isn't constructive.

jbbb said:

He's asking for solid advice don't have to be a dick about it atleast he's trying to learn.

As for the K6 hand you don't know the stack dynamics, blinds, stack sizes etc etc.
He could have been button with an M of 3 vs. two very tight players in the blinds. Don't judge until you know the situation.

'adjust the way you play' isn't constructive.

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Sorry was just saying what I thought I didnt mean to come off as a "dick". Im not juding just stating my opinion.
Thanks Again Jon

I'm not too keen on jamming pre given the live events I've played - people will happily limp call low/mid pocket pairs and weak aces to 8bb shoves.

Lead flop a bit smaller to give the illusion of more fold equity and call the shove, he can have stuff like 76, 86, 45, and bluffs.

Never raise off an 8bb stack btw, or bet post flop where you are not willing to become committed. Shove or fold pre.

Pascal LeFiscal said:

Shove or fold pre.

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Did you miss that I was on the BB? Are you saying that checking to see the free flop was an error?

There were two parts to my post - the first and second lines are regarding the specific hand, the third was just general advice aimed in response to this comment you made in your OP:

So to the final table. we are about maybe 5-6 hands in and about 8 handed. Blinds are 800/1600 and I am on the BB, I have maybe 8 big blinds left behind. There is one mid position limper and I decide to check to see a free flop as raising with K6o out of position would seem pointless.

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I think the first hand that you sucked out on was odd, then again you didn't say what your BB's was at this point as you said on the next hand that shoving with K,6os was really weak yet you shoved the K3 the hand beforee.

Anyway, as for the hand - as you played I don't think you could of really folded it in the end as you already put money in and was quite a big percentage of your stack.

I think betting is really bad on the flop because you are quite pot committed now so any scare card comes you're now stuck so either he was going to be shoving on you or folding so my approach would of been either shoving preflop, or shoving post flop. He most likely did see your bet as weak at this point so came over the top in the hope you would fold. If you did shove the flop though I can't see him calling most of the time..at this point and you do have fold equity left. If he just flatted(which he did) you have no lost your fold equity and you would be thinking what he has and now the problem he would always be calling the turn/river.

So yeah, the only thing I can think of here is shove pre(if you intended to bet the flop if a 6 came off) or post flop is the only play available. Betting is kind of pointless as you are putting in a big percentage of your stack and losing fold equity on the turn/river. The only time I'd bet like this is to induce a shove from him, so basically if I hit the King or two pair in the hope he shoves on you, other than that - any low pair like you did is a shove for me. You must remember, if he just flat calls here you are in a difficult situation on the and the river as both are getting away from the pot now. At least with shoving, he has something to think about, you lose all your fold equity from a flat call onwards.

Good job on final table though! Was a good call though, I would of made the call if in the same position as you and you got unlucky in the end, I just think it was shove/fold though at this point.

Deceitful_Frank said:

Did you miss that I was on the BB? Are you saying that checking to see the free flop was an error?

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I don't think it's an error so much to check here, unless you have a read and they are tight players then shoving is correct from the BB is right in my opnion. The problem is the betting on the flop, it needs to be shoved as betting just leaves to many problems with so little left behind you. Like I say, if he flat calls you are now stuck. You have no fold equity left and when he comes over the top I'd be safe in thinking you still had the best hand but it's not really an ideal situation to be shoved.

No problems with checking pre flop but post flop I think you have to shove. Once he's shoved I think calling was correct - he's only ahead with a higher PP or A6.