Limping to trap = Bad decision (a lesson)

dg1267

dg1267

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Okay Chuck, this one's for you!;)

I've placed ITM a couple times this last week in a couple of freerolls for some small b/r starters ($8, $4, $10).

I've been doing some serious studying here lately and trying to get my game up to par (not even close yet). I took those small b/r's and tried to make something out of them and typically did well playing in some micro cash games/micro sng's.

But what I want to teach you today is what ChuckT's has been trying to tell me for the past two weeks. I'm talking about limping into the pot.

Up front, I will let you know that all of those small b/r's are already gone. They are gone because of limping into the pot when I should have been raising. I started another thread last night complaining about getting sucked out on by crap hands that shouldn't have been there to begin with. Well, they probably wouldn't have had I entered the pot with a 3x-4x raise. Hands like 23o, 45o, 92s were killing my AKs and AQs hands.

I'm gonna post two scenarios here (both ended my b/r on either site) and I've pokerstoved them so you can see why it happened.


I hold: AcKc on the button, folded to me
Villain: 4d5h in the BB

Preflop %'s
AcKc =64%
4d5h =36%

Flop comes out: Jd7h6d

New %'s
AcKc =48%
4d5h =52%

I cbet 75% of the pot here wanting to chase out drawing hands. But remember, I'm playing micros and he just flopped an OESD; he's not letting this go without a ton of pressure. He calls and the turn is a blank for both of us. Now I'm pissed at myself for not running him out pre flop and I'm scared of just about anything he's holding, so I check it to him. Luckily, he checks it back (but now he knows I really don't have a hand).

The river comes out a 3 and to me it looks like a blank. I've just created a situation where I'm so worried about what he's holding that I don't see the completed straight chance. And, he just checked back to me on the turn so I'm really leaning towards him holding an Ax. So I bet out half the pot hoping this will just all go away and he re-raises me all in. Now I'm pot committed and I have to call. He wins.

Okay, this is getting long so I won't post both hands right now. But this is a prime example of how making the mistake of not leading out with a raise in position with a good hand to do so led to a whole slew of mistakes. I could've have pushed him off that hand easily pre flop with a 4x raise and won 1BB. Instead, I chose to trap and lost a bunch of BB's.

This is not saying that you need to go maniacal and raise every hand that you plan to stay in the pot with, but instead think about all the things you need to consider before you push the call button. Things like...

-how many callers in front of you
-how many players left to act behind you
-effective stacks of all players (difference between your stack and theirs)
-how many players might fold to a 3x raise; 4x raise
-are there any aggro players behind you that might re-raise you

Just paying attention at the table will make all of those things easy to work out quickly. Then, with all those things considered, figure out what is your best option at the moment. Do you call/raise/fold?

I'm still learning this and I think it's finally sunk in enough to seriously cut back the times I just enter the pot with a call hoping to either see a flop cheaply or to trap an "unsuspecting" player. And I hope that not only do I get an ass chewing from better players, but that those better players add to anything I might have missed or explained wrong. But mostly, I want lesser players to learn from my mistake and stop fearing putting some chips out there to try to win some pots.
 
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anytwocantyou

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I have this motto, if your going to play a hand raise it. Especially if the action is folded to you. In MTT if the table is weak and allowing a lot of limping then I will start limping small pairs and suited connectors etc in hopes of nailing a flop. Any premiums get jacked up to 3x maybe more if the table is call happy.
 
dg1267

dg1267

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I have this motto, if your going to play a hand raise it. Especially if the action is folded to you. In MTT if the table is weak and allowing a lot of limping then I will start limping small pairs and suited connectors etc in hopes of nailing a flop. Any premiums get jacked up to 3x maybe more if the table is call happy.

If you would, expand on this.

Tell us why you raise any hand you stay in with, limp small pairs, etc.

That is really what I wanted for this thread.
 
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Falian

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If you would, expand on this.

Tell us why you raise any hand you stay in with, limp small pairs, etc.

That is really what I wanted for this thread.

The two pieces of advice I can give to you, even as a newbie would be the following.

1. The less amount of people in the pot, the greater chance that nobody hits the flop. This is one of those cases. You have a strong hand and even though you missed the flop you should check the strength of your hand. Bet off the flop, in this instance he would call/fold depending on how high you bet.

If he folds, obviously you win. If he calls, then you now would have information about his hand, and would then probably notice the straight potential forming.

2. You never should go all-in because you have a "stake" in the pot. You need to have the mentality that once those chips go into the pot they are not yours anymore. Once he raised all-in, even though its hard to lose your attachment to the pot, you should fold.
 
TheseNutsWin

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2. You never should go all-in because you have a "stake" in the pot. You need to have the mentality that once those chips go into the pot they are not yours anymore. Once he raised all-in, even though its hard to lose your attachment to the pot, you should fold.

Exactly... ask yourself what can you beat here??? nothing but an A high bluff..
 
PokerPete

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I play SnG's and smal MTT and I never limp bigA or large pockets. Sometimes, if I'm at the table long enough, I'll start getting nothing but blinds... I bet, they fold. One of the worst mistakes I could make at this point is to stop raising in hopes of "nailing" someone... instead I'll start throwing raises out with KJ, etc. until someone plays back... funny thing is that in position and with a good table image ATC's can become A-Big... if played like they ARE A-Big
 
dg1267

dg1267

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funny thing is that in position and with a good table image ATC's can become A-Big... if played like they ARE A-Big

You just really don't want to get caught doing this too much. Otherwise, you lose your image.
 
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orioles32

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Limping to trap is a good idea...just generally not with AK. Trap with high pocket pairs, not with AK or AQ. If you limp with aces, they need pretty much a dream flop to beat you.
 
PokerPete

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You just really don't want to get caught doing this too much. Otherwise, you lose your image.
Yep.... you do it sparingly...nobody gets a whole string of very good starting hands... but, if you DO get caught... next big hand you raise you suddenly get two (or sometimes even more) callers...but you have to be a little more careful... they're gonna play at you.. but if you flop a monster they'll call down with top pair and no kicker or even 2nd pair :eek:
 
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tisias

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Overall it is better to raise than call with a premium strong hand....
 
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switch0723

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fwiw the situation is totally dependant, since Irexes (arguably the best tourny player on here) is a big believer in preflop limping and makes it work. I have nothing really to mention in this thread since i'm someone who never limps since i raise with all types of hands from all positions, but was just pointing out that limping can be used effectively
 
dg1267

dg1267

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fwiw the situation is totally dependant, since Irexes (arguably the best tourny player on here) is a big believer in preflop limping and makes it work. I have nothing really to mention in this thread since i'm someone who never limps since i raise with all types of hands from all positions, but was just pointing out that limping can be used effectively

I know it can be used effectively, but in lower stakes, you are just allowing junk hands the opportunity to beat you too often. I now feel this way because, like in the above situation, once they catch any piece of the flop, they are not turning loose. So allowing them to see the flop cheaply you might as well be allowing them the use of your credit cards.
 
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Yeti

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...After all DG, when their 9c6c lands on a board of 9dTh6s allowing them to bet all their chips into you when you hold TcTd and simply letting them do so is rather giving up one's credit card.

You seem to have managed to make yourself blind to situations where it can be correct to limp - and as has been said during this thread they are out there. Primarily during early tournament/SNG play.
 
Irexes

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fwiw the situation is totally dependant, since Irexes (arguably the best tourny player on here) is a big believer in preflop limping and makes it work. I have nothing really to mention in this thread since i'm someone who never limps since i raise with all types of hands from all positions, but was just pointing out that limping can be used effectively

I limp a lot (tbh I do it even more in CC games where it's easier to play metagame mindgames with people).

I limp JJ-AA a lot in ep in certain short/mid-stack positions (never when I have a big stack) and it's dependant on a ton-of things. Not to give it the big-un, but unsupervised it's insanely dangerous. You have to be able to make crazy laydowns post flop or it'll cost you serious $ in the longrun.

I've limp-folded KK a huuuuuuuuuuge amount of times to scary flops and I know that for a lot of people that's not something they are comfortable doing.
 
dg1267

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I limp a lot (tbh I do it even more in CC games where it's easier to play metagame mindgames with people).

I limp JJ-AA a lot in ep in certain short/mid-stack positions (never when I have a big stack) and it's dependant on a ton-of things. Not to give it the big-un, but unsupervised it's insanely dangerous. You have to be able to make crazy laydowns post flop or it'll cost you serious $ in the longrun.

I've limp-folded KK a huuuuuuuuuuge amount of times to scary flops and I know that for a lot of people that's not something they are comfortable doing.

I'm so marking this in my notes on you!:deal: ;)
 
zachvac

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:joyman:

This is why people fold their blinds to my utg limps :)

I'd probably fold KK from the BB if he open limped UTG. Of course that's why I hate Full Tilt because you can't fold instead of check @#%@#%@#%@#.
 
ChuckTs

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I don't really know why you want me in this thread. You basically already summed up how to solve your problems; by paying attention to these criteria:

-how many callers in front of you
-how many players left to act behind you
-effective stacks of all players (difference between your stack and theirs)
-how many players might fold to a 3x raise; 4x raise
-are there any aggro players behind you that might re-raise you

The majority of the time you should be open raising. The reason why someone like Irexes can encorporate limps into his overall strategy and make it work is because he is very experienced and understsands how to do it properly. He knows how his opponents are playing, and he knows how they'll react to his limps, and so he can do it as a trap or to see cheap flops. Very few know how to do what he does. Anyone who's open limping in my games is labeled a fish, and almost always that read holds true.

You're still a novice player. Stick to a tight aggressive style by raising pretty much every single time you're first into a pot. Don't listen to the people who say "AK is only a drawing hand"; they don't know dick about poker. That said, AK really isn't a strong enough hand to slowplay preflop. The only time to do that is if you think someone behind you is likely to shove their whole stack in or something, but even in that case the risk of getting limps behind you or letting the BB see a flop for free is too great, and raising is still the best play.

Just don't bother with limping. To quote myself by way of Belgo quoting me in his signature, "If you're limping, stop."
 
Irexes

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Just for the record, I think I've open-limped AK once.
 
dg1267

dg1267

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I don't really know why you want me in this thread. You basically already summed up how to solve your problems; by paying attention to these criteria:



The majority of the time you should be open raising. The reason why someone like Irexes can encorporate limps into his overall strategy and make it work is because he is very experienced and understsands how to do it properly. He knows how his opponents are playing, and he knows how they'll react to his limps, and so he can do it as a trap or to see cheap flops. Very few know how to do what he does. Anyone who's open limping in my games is labeled a fish, and almost always that read holds true.

You're still a novice player. Stick to a tight aggressive style by raising pretty much every single time you're first into a pot. Don't listen to the people who say "AK is only a drawing hand"; they don't know dick about poker. That said, AK really isn't a strong enough hand to slowplay preflop. The only time to do that is if you think someone behind you is likely to shove their whole stack in or something, but even in that case the risk of getting limps behind you or letting the BB see a flop for free is too great, and raising is still the best play.

Just don't bother with limping. To quote myself by way of Belgo quoting me in his signature, "If you're limping, stop."

This is why I wanted you in here!:)

Not only did you let me know that I've actually learned what I was trying to (although the hard way), but you added to the discussion. Thanks.

You are now free to go about your business.:D;)
 
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Chamaican666

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ChuckT, you said to never limp? what if you have a suited connector, thats def not a raising hand. but a hand you want to see a cheap flop with.
 
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anytwocantyou

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If you would, expand on this.

Tell us why you raise any hand you stay in with, limp small pairs, etc.

That is really what I wanted for this thread.

The reason I have for open raising anything I am playing is that many players are weak. I keep pounding the pot until my opponents become frustrated and make a mistake. Obviously you have to have a good grasp at your table and also know when to give up your hand which is a big issue or people post flop. With suited connectors and the sorts and the table is allowing multiple people to limp into a pot thats when I will limp some of these hands because 1) it makes me seem less maniac than raising every hand and you do need to mix up your play, and when you hit some straight or something on the guy whos limps AA you get paid off because people are too dumb to fold AA in a limped pot when they are obviously beaten.
 
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Just for the record, I think I've open-limped AK once.

Really? You musta had a cold or maybe you sneezed and accidentally hit the wrong button or something like that.
 
dcor

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Limping to trap is a good idea...just generally not with AK. Trap with high pocket pairs, not with AK or AQ. If you limp with aces, they need pretty much a dream flop to beat you.

I dont really know about "dream flop"......how bout two pair 8's and 7's...etc....wouldnt exactly call that a dream.....I dont like trapping with high pocket pairs unless its about to be heads up and you know you wont get action from a raise.......dont try to trap 3 limpers with a monster preflop hand....chances are you will be screwing yourself when someone hits kings and eights against your kings ace kicker.....I think someone here has a sig that is quoted from chuckts that says "If you are limping, STOP!"

Edit: didnt see that chuck had already responded and quoted himself....so disregard that last line.....btw:
I work in the department of redundancy department.
 
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dg1267

dg1267

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Yeah, I thought about posting that, dcor. But I didn't want to get into that argument. But since you started it... LOL

Limping with AA, KK, QQ with limpers in front of you is almost a sure fire way of getting them beat by someone hitting the flop harder than you. Those are the worst hands to trap with because you are generally the one getting trapped.
 
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