Is Limping Condonable at Times?

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ssbn743

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This hand occurred in a normal Saturday deep stack tournament at my local casino. The buy was $210 for $30K starting stacks and 30 minute levels.

There were 102 entries and the bubble burst at 13th. We were down to the final table bubble and I busted on that bubble at 11th place.

It had been a good day, I was seeing some cards, but was more importantly finding myself in positions of opportunity; one time, taking full advantage of a tilting player when we were in the low 20 players remaining and more than doubling up to about $150K. At that time, the average stack was probably more like $200K, but $150K was a good stack with several weak players sitting around $50 to $70K.

Anyway, we were down to 11 and I started my final table run. I was getting monster hands in a 5 handed game too; AJ, AK, JJ from late positions or the blinds, so, I kept raising. Blinds were $6K/$3K/$1K and I raised 3 consecutive hands in a row and simply won the blinds and antes, plus maybe a limp here and there every time. This moved my stack up to around $210K with the average stack probably around $250K.

From UTG I’m dealt :9c4: :10c4:

Not a bad hand, in fact, one of my favorite hands. I was going to raise but just kind of got a vibe like that wasn’t a good idea – I had raised the 3 previous pots. So, I made my mistake and limped for $6K – the only time in the whole 9 hour game that I opened limped. I normally, do not limp at all, but for some reason it just felt right here; 5 handed games kind of change your perspective.

UTG +1 (Chip Leader - ~$450K stack) raised to $17K and everybody at the table called – specifically why I felt raising for the 4th consecutive time was not a good idea. So, I called the $11K on top of my limp and went to the flop.

Pot: $90K

Flop: :3s4: :9h4: :10d4:

The small blind checked. My immediate thought was to check raise as I was nearly certain that UTG +1 would bet here. I checked, and he didn’t disappoint with a $60K C-Bet. Everyone folded around to me. I very calmly and methodically took my time and stated “all-in” to which I received a snap call from my opponent.

UTG +1 showed: :ad4: :ac4:

“Yeah that’s what I thought you had” he said as I’m just like “really, and you snap called anyway?” But, that’s just what I was thinking – I didn’t say anything.

Pot: $476K

Turn: :2c4:

River: :2d4:

And my night was over in 11th place for a whopping $350 on a $210 buy-in.
“Yeah, that’s the danger of playing that stuff.” said my opponent. I just rolled my eyes as I’m thinking “Yeah, 75/25 sucks man.” whatever, as I just left without saying anything.

So, I guess it comes down to one big question:

Was limping UTG in a 5-handed game the wrong path?

Obviously, it’s easy after knowing the result to say I should have open folded 9 10 UTG – or raised it like I normally would if I was going to play it. However, we know now that I almost certainly would have been 3-bet pre-flop if I had done so; and I couldn’t call OOP. I did get the money in, in nearly an 80/20 situation; so my line here can’t be terrible, but I’m just wondering if I screwed up really bad at the worst possible time or if I just got unlucky at the worst possible time.
 
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Ronoh

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Pretty sure you know the answers to all of your questions and just wanted to post your bad beat under the guise of "I got it all in 80/20, what could I have done different".

A couple of weeks ago I was happy to find this board appeared to still be going strong... fast forward a bit and the sheer volume of bad beat threads are driving me away.

Yes, this response may be on the troll'ish side but if anyone reading it can take anything at all away from it, please try to get it through your heads... NO ONE cares about your bad beat.
 
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HollyMichelle13

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Limping on the FT bubble from UTG with T9s is not a good idea.

It's either a raise/fold or fold.

Say you raise and UTG 3bets you can fold your hand and move on.

People get themselves into trouble with mediocre hands all the time. Stop it at the source!
 
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Listen to the little voices in your head. At least while playing poker.
 
dj11

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Limping is fine, but not 9Ts from UTG. I like that hand too, and from MP on I will often limp it, and maybe raise it.

Had you raised it, you still would have lost....
 
SeaRun

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Pretty sure you know the answers to all of your questions and just wanted to post your bad beat under the guise of "I got it all in 80/20, what could I have done different".

A couple of weeks ago I was happy to find this board appeared to still be going strong... fast forward a bit and the sheer volume of bad beat threads are driving me away.

Yes, this response may be on the troll'ish side but if anyone reading it can take anything at all away from it, please try to get it through your heads... NO ONE cares about your bad beat.

With all due respect, that isn't a bad beat (at least, by the definition I believe is right).

Limping on the FT bubble from UTG with T9s is not a good idea.

It's either a raise/fold or fold.

Say you raise and UTG 3bets you can fold your hand and move on.

People get themselves into trouble with mediocre hands all the time. Stop it at the source!

Great post and wonderful advice. I limp, maybe too often, but when 5 or 6 players ahead of me allow me to get into the pot for a blind or less with a small pocket pair or a small suited A, it's their problem from then on if I hit big. You just have to have the mental capacity to fold a "decent" hand if there's a good possibility you're beat.

As for the OP, I think the big mistake was made when you called the raise. If I was in that situation with anything that wasn't worth a nice raise at the start and everyone ahead was in for 3bb, I'd have to think seriously about playing that hand.
 
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ssbn743

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Pretty sure you know the answers to all of your questions and just wanted to post your bad beat under the guise of "I got it all in 80/20, what could I have done different".

A couple of weeks ago I was happy to find this board appeared to still be going strong... fast forward a bit and the sheer volume of bad beat threads are driving me away.

Yes, this response may be on the troll'ish side but if anyone reading it can take anything at all away from it, please try to get it through your heads... NO ONE cares about your bad beat.

And you wanted to post a response under the guise that “I am way too good to waste time reading about bead beat stories” yet couldn’t resist taking the time to comment on said post anyway.

In other words “I’m all-in!”
 
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Ronoh

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With all due respect, that isn't a bad beat (at least, by the definition I believe is right).
75/25 when the money went in fits many peoples definition of a bad beat. Semantics, call it what you will.

SeaRun said:
As for the OP, I think the big mistake was made when you called the raise.
79,000 in the pot, it's 11,000 to call with a very playable hand and no one left to act behind... and it was a mistake to call? :D

ssbn743 said:
And you wanted to post a response under the guise that “I am way too good to waste time reading about bead beat stories” yet couldn’t resist taking the time to comment on said post anyway
You answered all of your own questions in the OP. If my comments make a single person think twice before posting a beat I consider it a success ;)
 
Mr Sandbag

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It depends on your competition. Limping usually caps a player's range significantly, so if you are playing against solid thinking players it can be pretty horrible from any position. If the table is soft and most or all of the players are loose/passive fish who are barely thinking about anything other than their own two cards, limping certain hands isn't a huge mistake.

However, limping 10-9s UTG in what I'm assuming is a 9- or 10-handed game is almost always a big mistake because:
- Again, your range is capped,
- You'll either be folding to a raise or...
- Calling a raise with a hand that is behind the raiser's range while...
- OOP on everybody except the blinds, which...
- Makes it difficult to execute any semi-bluffs with a speculative hand like 10-9s.
 
kidkvno1

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Fold T9 UTG..


Pretty sure you know the answers to all of your questions and just wanted to post your bad beat under the guise of "I got it all in 80/20, what could I have done different".

A couple of weeks ago I was happy to find this board appeared to still be going strong... fast forward a bit and the sheer volume of bad beat threads are driving me away.

Yes, this response may be on the troll'ish side but if anyone reading it can take anything at all away from it, please try to get it through your heads... NO ONE cares about your bad beat.

This is not a good way to reply to a post.
You did not have to read the thread or reply to it.
 
Mr Sandbag

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EDIT TO MY PREVIOUS POST:

I somehow missed the part about the game being 5-handed. Limping there is still kinda bad.

Fold > Open-raise > Limp
 
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Whether you limped or raised, he was going to call and with you hitting the high 2 pair, you were going to call anything anyways. Id limp in the blinds and fold to a raise with 910 cuz im not a big fan of that hand. But either way, it was a good play, the cards just crapped on you.
 
SeaRun

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75/25 when the money went in fits many peoples definition of a bad beat. Semantics, call it what you will.

Well, semantics maybe yes, but I believe the majority, if not all, will agree that for it to be considered a bad beat, you have to have the best hand at some point, which the OP never had. I stand to be corrected though.

79,000 in the pot, it's 11,000 to call with a very playable hand and no one left to act behind... and it was a mistake to call? :D

I look at it this way; some say that if you have P-As and 5 players ahead of you (all with reasonably even stacks) are all-in, it's a possible mistake to follow with your hand, as your odds are drastically reduced. CC Odds Calculator tells us that in a 6 handed game, AA against no other pocket pairs will only win 37.6 % of the time.

So lets put that theory towards the OPs situation. He has a medium pocket pair, and let's assume no other player has a pair, but each has one over card and one under card. His odds (by the CC odds calculator) are ~ 24% to win. I would highly doubt at that stage of the game anyone is flat calling with J-5 or K-rag, someone, maybe 2 or more, will have something good.

So let's now say there's a pair of Js there, that has just reduced his odds to ~ 16%. Now we might be getting into territory where he doesn't have the value to play that hand. Add in another over pair to the mix and his odds are now just over 14%.

Maybe my thinking is too tight, maybe bordering nitty, but in his situation I'm waiting for a better position and / or better hands. Just my opinion, and if I'm showed where I'm wrong, cool, I learned something today.
 
Mr Sandbag

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And Ronoh...

OP is obviously bitter about being eliminated from the tourney. But he's not just b*tching about it. He asked a question.

Downswings, suck outs, bad beats, and mistakes are all things that drive us to improve our games. Unfortunately there will be emotions attached to all of these things, but it's unavoidable and part of poker.
 
SeaRun

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And Ronoh...

OP is obviously bitter about being eliminated from the tourney. But he's not just b*tching about it. He asked a question.

Downswings, suck outs, bad beats, and mistakes are all things that drive us to improve our games. Unfortunately there will be emotions attached to all of these things, but it's unavoidable and part of poker.

Damn, I wish I had said that!!!!! Two thumbs up!!!!!!
 
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Ronoh

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Well, semantics maybe yes, but I believe the majority, if not all, will agree that for it to be considered a bad beat, you have to have the best hand at some point, which the OP never had.
Did you even read the hand in question? The chips went in when hero flopped top two pair against an overpair...

...again, OP had two pair and villain had one pair.......
 
SeaRun

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Did you even read the hand in question? The chips went in when hero flopped top two pair against an overpair...

...again, OP had two pair and villain had one pair.......

Well yes I did, but missed the matching 10 on the flop, so shame on me for not paying attention properly.

I do stand CORRECTED!!!!!

Jamie
 
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ssbn743

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It depends on your competition. Limping usually caps a player's range significantly, so if you are playing against solid thinking players it can be pretty horrible from any position. If the table is soft and most or all of the players are loose/passive fish who are barely thinking about anything other than their own two cards, limping certain hands isn't a huge mistake.

However, limping 10-9s UTG in what I'm assuming is a 9- or 10-handed game is almost always a big mistake because:

- Again, your range is capped,
- You'll either be folding to a raise or...
- Calling a raise with a hand that is behind the raiser's range while...
- OOP on everybody except the blinds, which...
- Makes it difficult to execute any semi-bluffs with a speculative hand like 10-9s.

EDIT TO MY PREVIOUS POST:
I somehow missed the part about the game being 5-handed. Limping there is still kinda bad.

Fold > Open-raise > Limp

And Ronoh...
OP is obviously bitter about being eliminated from the tourney. But he's not just b*tching about it. He asked a question.

Downswings, suck outs, bad beats, and mistakes are all things that drive us to improve our games. Unfortunately there will be emotions attached to all of these things, but it's unavoidable and part of poker.

That’s what I was thinking on the drive home as well – I should have just open-raised, he would have 3-bet, and I could have folded; it’s that simple. But instead, I chose a fairly weak line. Then again, it was 5 handed, which pretty much makes every hand a MP hand, and it’s not too far of a stretch to condone limping 910s from MP – I don’t really like it and would never do it unless I had a reason to; kind of like this situation. The reason being, that I couldn’t raise due to the fact that I was not going to get any credit whatsoever.

Once he raises and gets 4 callers I have to be the 5th caller, in the hopes of flopping exactly what flopped. Great situation, it’s just very questionable, in my mind, how I got there.

Obviously, he was not thinking about my hand at all. If you’re sitting there with AA and are C/R all-in (for 80% of your stack) what is in your opponents range?

1. Total bluffs; maybe semi-bluffs, and;
2. Hands that have you crushed.

If it was me, I would have raised pre-flop to $24K, made a ~$25K C-bet and fold when raised; especially with his stack – he’s got the monster chip lead. What can he beat? He doesn’t need to take the chance.

So yes I am bitter about losing to a player that obviously has a lot to learn, and $350 is a lot less than the 5 dimes for first that this guy then had a great shot at. On a side note, and I don’t know this for a fact yet, but I’d be willing to bet he chopped for $3K…lol.

Anyway, in a full game, limping 9 10 UTG is an obvious mistake, and it appears to be here as well. I just questioned the traditional approach here because in the end, I did have 75/25 when the money went in, and I C/R all-in to increase my stack by over 70% if he folded outright. But that’s one highly desirable situation, in +EV respects, I’m not sure which way is right - I'm just wondering if it borders on acceptable.
 
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I look at it this way; some say that if you have P-As and 5 players ahead of you (all with reasonably even stacks) are all-in, it's a possible mistake to follow with your hand, as your odds are drastically reduced. CC Odds Calculator tells us that in a 6 handed game, AA against no other pocket pairs will only win 37.6 % of the time.
Yeah, this is why math is a big part of them game.

Say everyone has equal stacks of $200. You have a 37.6% chance of your stack turning into $1200 and a 62.4% chance of it turning into $0. That's better than 1/3rd chance of winning 5x your money which makes it an obscenely easy call.

You are focusing on the fact that you have less than a 50/50 chance to win the hand rather than the "risk vs reward" view of the prize to be won.

Run the hand 100 times... if you fold there you end up +/- $0 100% of the time.

If you call you will lose $200 62 times ($12,400) and win $1000 38 times ($38,000) for an expected win of $25,600

Get it...?
 
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Did you even read the hand in question? The chips went in when hero flopped top two pair against an overpair...

...again, OP had two pair and villain had one pair.......

Someone needs a nap!
 
SeaRun

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Yeah, this is why math is a big part of them game.

Say everyone has equal stacks of $200. You have a 37.6% chance of your stack turning into $1200 and a 62.4% chance of it turning into $0. That's better than 1/3rd chance of winning 5x your money which makes it an obscenely easy call.

You are focusing on the fact that you have less than a 50/50 chance to win the hand rather than the "risk vs reward" view of the prize to be won.

Run the hand 100 times... if you fold there you end up +/- $0 100% of the time.

If you call you will lose $200 62 times ($12,400) and win $1000 38 times ($38,000) for an expected win of $25,600

Get it...?

In cash games, definitely, all day, no brainer, without any hesitation, and I'll say you're right.

However, this was a tournament situation and that's what I based my post on. Maybe YOU are good enough to get to the final table often enough to risk that in a tourney, but most aren't.
 
IntenseHeat

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I don't think raising/not raising would have been a factor in helping you win this hand, unless you thought you were going to get him off of pocket aces somehow. And we pretty much know you weren't getting him off of pocket aces. So my answer to OP's question is that you did both. You screwed up at the worst possible time and got unlucky at the worst possible time.

It wasn't the most opportune time to be getting involved with something marginal like 9-10. I think you knew that in the back of your mind, which is why you didn't raise, as you say you normally would have. Of course, once you're involved and the hand gets raised and the rest of the table calls, you're priced in. You pretty much hit bingo on him. Unfortunately, it didn't hold up. But, as Ronoh said, you probably already know all this. Unlike Ronoh, I don't mind a bad beat story if as long as you learned something from the hand, and aren't just looking to coddled.
 
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Poker Orifice

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However, this was a tournament situation and that's what I based my post on. Maybe YOU are good enough to get to the final table often enough to risk that in a tourney, but most aren't.
It's a small field tournament... final table is same as reaching top10% which is typically where you are just getting into the payouts/bubble.

I'd have to say +1 on every post of ronoh's in this thread. And for a thread that may have been a badbeat thread under the guise of a question, I think he actually brought some decent/valuable info. to the table.
congrats ronoh... badbeat thread turned to informative read. 'wp'
 
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– the only time in the whole 9 hour game that I opened limped. I normally, do not limp at all, but for some reason it just felt right here; 5 handed games kind of change your perspective.


.
Having a system/strategy is in place so we have a basis to answer the question we ask ourselves during a game/tourney.
Going outside that system/strategy is what gets us in trouble.
Adjusting play during the game/tourney in certain ways may be part of our system/strategy, but if open limping is against the rules, then don't do it.

Your OP question:
Is Limping Condonable at Times?
may of been asked by you so that you could determine if an adjustment should be made to your system/strategy.
If so, then my opinion is that OPEN limping bad, and is not to be done.
 
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