limp and re-raise all in

M

millertime

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i have ran into a couple situations where someone will limp in the cut off with a big hand QQ-AA. i typically wont play a hand without raising. i do not like to call the min and limp in with 6 other ppl.

today in the $3R blinds are 600/1200, table has been playing kind of loose. i'm on the button with 88, 3 people limp in front of me so i raise to 7200. i had ~45k. everyone folds but one guy re-raises all in for my whole stack. i call and he has QQ. I lose and bust.

my question is, did the limp all in make the "right" play for getting donkey me to call him? i have seen people pull this move a few times and 95% of the time i just fold cause i dont like to go all in PF anyway. typically when i've seen ppl do this before, they'll have 88>*. i have seen a lot of people with PP's just limp then smooth call a big raise to hit their card.

is limping then shoving all in a good move? i think it's a TERRIBLE move even though it worked for the guy in this situation. if feel like you're going to lose more often since you're allowing ppl to just come in for "free" with mid range or worse hands.

obviously i probably shouldnt have called his all in for my whole stack with 88 but would it have been better for me to just limp too or should i have folded outright?
 
Fuffufnick

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I wish I could remember where I read this but; "never go broke in a limped pot" comes to mind. Personally I agree with you that limping with a big PP is not "usually" the right play as it does invite others in to bust your chops. However, if you have agros on your left, who you feel will perceive the limp as weak, and you believe will raise for you, why not trap them? I think both a call and raise are both fine for you there on the bttn (with the raise being slightly preferable to fold out the weak and help in defining the villain's hand) but the reshove should have definitely sent off the warning bells in your mind.
 
Mr Sandbag

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You said it yourself - you typically don't play a hand without raising. He knew he could count on you to raise, especially on the button, so he risked a limped pot in order to trap you. This is a poor play against a random group of unknowns, but based on what you said about yourself, there was a pretty good chance you are raising the button and giving him an opportunity to trap.

You probably should have folded unless he had a history of being loose and aggressive like that. Most players would only check/shove preflop with a big hand. The best case scenario for you was basically a coinflip.
 
Dalsue214

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I think you put too much in Preflop.

I would've raised 3600 tops.. Because of the VPIP, an overraise like that preflop tempts the other to reraise or even shove.
 
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tiantianchen

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limp-raise usually indicates strong hand. Whether it is a good play or not really depends on the opponent. Usually I think it is good, when people in late positions are aggressive.

Think it this way, in the worst case, you can always fold on a wet flop and lose 1bb.
 
NvrBlufn

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Probably not a terrible play with QQ. Lately they've played more like jacks to me (all those years calling the hand Siegfried & Roy are finally catching up). I might limp in either your spot or his so I can throw them away on any unfavorable action flop. Your raise was BIG, maybe it felt like you would be happy if all the limpers folded?? Definitely correct me if I am wrong, seems like you don't want action there with that raise.

When it folds back to him he'll know there are only two hands better than his out of the gates and not wanting to face anymore difficult decisions out of position I understand the 3 bet shove. Pocket QQs, KKs, and Aces pretty much play themselves most of the time but I kid you not the last two times I have had QQ I lost to pocket aces. Both live, both in the last two weeks :(

Unfortunate for you that he disguised his strong hand by limping but I think it was well-played and it obviously netted him a lot of chips and a knockout.
 
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the smart play would have been to fold but you took a chance you cant win them all
 
NvrBlufn

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:dito: You are not pot committed yet or in dire enough straits to call down with schmedium pairs, especially given the possibility that he may have an overpair
 
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ak725

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bad play. with 88 maybe limp to see the pot.
He wanted to trap you and he did.
 
loafes

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As far as limping in being a good tournament play. I figure its a decent play to throw in on occasion just to mix it up, you can get huge dividends when it works which is pretty likely if you have aggros on your left. But I wouldn't make it my standard play.

With the 88 its kinda an annoying spot to have a hand of moderate strength vs so many opponents. Over limping to set mine is probably fine here, you're in position. Raising as you did to get people to fold is OK as well, however after you get reshoved you need to fold. The main concern is if you make a big raise and one or two morons decide to just call you, that word suck because you're going to have over cards on the flop.
 
Mechanic44

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raise limpers and see what happens. :D spekulative hands will fold,and thats what wee want.
 
helpspb

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If he thought that you're raising a lot he limped with intention to trap you. Especially at that stage of the tournament, you should've folded your 88. Your raise was also quite big, he might have thought you're just trying to steal.
 
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Riverup16

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Your raise preflop definitely gave the guy a VERY good range of your hand... Between 8's and 10s sounds about right... With the possibility of jacks... But in his case with queens.. The higher the better. Your raise also shows that you might be very willing to call an all in preflop... And with all the limping and raising preflop, even if you do get off of your 8s. That is a +10k pot that he takes down... Poor played in my opinion... Overraises like that tend to telegraph your hand quite a bit more then you might think
 
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somersetlad9

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"never go broke in a limped pot"
 
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cleiton1988

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your raise was right but when you saw that he re-raise you shouldnt call because you have to imagine that he had a bigger pair and he had
so the best was to fold after his move
 
NvrBlufn

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It's a 7x Bb raise how can that be right? Vorhaus wrote that you never want to raise more than 5x. It puts mathematical pressure on your hand to win and will be -EV in the long run. This is the game theory perspective: raises under 2.5x do not accomplish what we set out to achieve and raises over 5x make it harder for us to win money over time.
 
aa88wildbill

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Sounds like you don't mix your game up enough, some of the players are getting no read on you. You can't always raise! Mix it up, so they can't read you as easy.
 
davygold78

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I think both a call and raise are both fine for you there on the bttn (with the raise being slightly preferable to fold out the weak and help in defining the villain's hand) but the reshove should have definitely sent off the warning bells in your mind
 
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aznman08

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I think 7200 otb is a big raise because it forces you into situations when villian limp-shoves. Not to mention we are committing 15% of our stack pf.

i typically wont play a hand without raising. i do not like to call the min and limp in with 6 other ppl.

well this line says you dont mix up your game enough. in a tournament you dont want to make yourself too predictable because depending on your opponent, they make pick up on this and try to trap you with a big hand.
 
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belay raduga

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limp dangerous in that big amount of people who necessarily will meet a particular combination that would kill your hand - in this case, I do not go into the Bank - an exception only for the AA - KK - JJ - AK - but in this case, your hand can kill because it is poker all depends on how settled stars in the sky)naturally if the flop got nothing from it all depends on you - whether to go on or throw a hand
 
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belay raduga

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risk stack I think it is foolish if there is no position that makes no sense - just give money to a stranger - then in the poker game to play at no cost))) but again this is my opinion I never play to enter the pot preflop with a huge number of limp won't if unsure in his hand
 
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margenov

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Depending on the table you could limp behind and give up on the flop if you don't hit big or raise to 3.2-3.8bb and be prepared to fold/call all in depending on who is shoving. I would personally raise to ~3.6bb and see what happens from there.
 
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millertime

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thanks for the replies. will def take some of this info into account from now on. i was trying to raise big to discourage action and had been playing tight up to this point so figured i had a good bit of table respect. i realize i should have folded in retrospect. i should have probably just limped in too to see if i catch an 8. next time i wont be raising so much.
 
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millertime

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bam! just cashed 2nd in tonight's $3R. $216 woot!
 
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So i'm on cardplayer, and the one article says Top 5 leaks in low limit hold 'em players, and the pro goes on to say that you should NEVER LIMP, ever.. just straight NEVER EVER, EVER EVER LIMP.

I highly disagree with this, and was wondering what other thought. I feel as though i have an edge on almost all player's at a 1/3 table, especially at a casino. This being said, i try to see as many flops as possible, as i feel i can outplay most player's at these low limit's, especially on a loose weak table.
Also, i feel like some hands you want to limp to allow as many caller's as possible.. When holding pocket 22's under the gun, if i'm never limping, i either have to fold them, or raise them, and wind up playing a heads up or 3 way pot with 22's.. Whereas if i limp, i can pick up 5,6 caller's possibly, or if i limp and i get raised to $15, i can still call, but if i open UTG with 22 for $11 and get repopped to $35 heads up, i have to fold.. At the casino i limp like crazy, as most pots preflop go unraised, or only raised small like to $6-$11, and i feel as though i can outplay all the opponents, i'm always trying to take a flop with any small suited connector, small pocket pairs, even one gappers and two gappers in late position like j,9 -- 10, 7 .. Beacuse when i hit my hand, these weak player's go all in with top pair or top 2 pair, it's easy to get paid off.. Does anyone agree/disagree with the NEVER limp advice from cardplayer? and why ?
 
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