To limp or not to limp

Jankou36

Jankou36

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Hi,
I wonder why pokerstars school always say "Never limp, make a raise or fold". I think there is a plenty of situations where limp is better than raise, especially in a turbo tournaments, where you can't risk your 3BB raise with medium hand like AQ or KJ against someones all-in.
Sometimes when I play super carefull (e.g. when I need to make 15% best in league) I limp even with AK, cause this hand needs a pair to be premium and I don't wanna risk a flip.
I also think it's great way to play in early stages of tournaments when blind are really small, you can see many flops and hit two pairs, threes or better.
What you think about limping and this Pokerschool rule?
 
Alucard

Alucard

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limping in AK is a terrible play imo. It would be ok ish in later stages when you want to bait someone but still I consider it very weak.

By limping in you are giving other players a chance to cheaply see the flop. So many players with connector or suited cards would tag with you for the ride. So when they connect with the flop, your hand becomes worthless.

But if you did raise 2.5-4BBs they aren't likely to call because their chances preflop are not that good.

I'll give an example that happened to me. In the middle stage of a tournament about 20 players left. (40 player sit n go) I was like the least stack in the tournament. I was in the BB with 10,3 offsuit. Hi jack calls. others fold. I check. the flop comes 10,3,9. Me hitting a pair. He min raises. I call. Turn comes something like a 6. He goes all in. I don't have any other play than calling so I call. He show pocket aces. I win the pot with two pairs.
If he did raise preflop I would've probably folded without a second thought. He tried to slowroll me and paid the price.
Eventually I won the tournament. :cool:
 
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Dani_California

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I try to avoid limping and almost never do that if I open. However, just like you said, sometimes limping might be the best choice with mediocre hands if there are players limping before you as well. Unlike you, I do this more often in the late stages of a tournament though. Still, I would never limp AK and you shouldn't either. You are giving chances to worse hands to hit two pairs etc. when they wouldn't have called your raise in the first place. You don't wanna have a family pot with AK even if you hit that top pair. But that's just my personal opinion and because this is poker, there isn't any right way to play. I'm also interested to hear more about limping strategy from people who are using it successfully.
 
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MidMoMan

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I think your both right...
In your example above the other risk is that a players with small stack will 'always' take a chance of calling a 2x or 3x bet because they are desperate. In your example if the player had AK and shoved and you did to because your on BB and small stack you would have flopped a win.

AK is even weaker than say... pair 2s, it's a race which I usually lose.
 
Iryna Stryzheuskaya

Iryna Stryzheuskaya

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I sometimes limp when someone has entered the bank limping before me. But as a rule, I try to avoid this.
 
Andrei Korolev

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Depending on the hole cards and position,you can limp and make a re-raise,depends on the situation at the table.
 
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kozong

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i think its better not to limp
with more people in the pot, then you have to think about much wider range of hands
 
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cheeeer

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Hi,
I wonder why PokerStars school always say "Never limp, make a raise or fold". I think there is a plenty of situations where limp is better than raise
Because everyone has own style. I noticed those who were taught play worse. They try to play how have been taught but they don't know how and don't understand when. finally teacher can be mistaken too. Then they start to play worse. Until they realize the reason. Or right to say if they realize it.
 
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sarniack

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There is only one answer to that:

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source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bobbycrosby/ev-poker-comics
 
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Two6JJ

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By limping you destroy the equity of your hand and also can become very exploitable since most limpers will only call a raise with QQ+ and AK+.
 
froggeedogs

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limping in

I will generally limp with small pairs only, learning to raise was hard for me but I do it now. Pays off in the long run.
 
mbrenneman0

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Hi,
I wonder why PokerStars school always say "Never limp, make a raise or fold". I think there is a plenty of situations where limp is better than raise, especially in a turbo tournaments, where you can't risk your 3BB raise with medium hand like AQ or KJ against someones all-in.
Sometimes when I play super carefull (e.g. when I need to make 15% best in league) I limp even with AK, cause this hand needs a pair to be premium and I don't wanna risk a flip.
I also think it's great way to play in early stages of tournaments when blind are really small, you can see many flops and hit two pairs, threes or better.
What you think about limping and this Pokerschool rule?

yes, there are times when limping is okay. but none of the reasons you mentioned are good reasons to limp. youre massively undervaluing premium hands like AK and AQ and youll never get action from any player with a hud because they will realize that you only open raise with jacks or better.

stick to the rule of never limping until you get much better, learn how to build good ranges, play deceptively the right way, and learn how to play postflop properly.

also, you dont have to raise to 3bb every time just because you open raised. in a tournament, your raise size should be based on effective stacks. min raise with effective stack size between 18-30bb raise to 2.5x between 30-50bb and 3x with effective stacks larger than 50bb
 
AKQ

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limping in early stages is great as long as you keep the pots small and can get good reads and be able to FOLD. Dont make a read and then not follow through. cough cough Negreanu cough* Pros say ak is a trapping hand ;)
 
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MadPanic

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Danny Negranu is as big fan of limp-calling, you should watch his YouTube videos about small balling. He's very good.
 
Jankou36

Jankou36

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yes, there are times when limping is okay. but none of the reasons you mentioned are good reasons to limp. youre massively undervaluing premium hands like AK and AQ and youll never get action from any player with a hud because they will realize that you only open raise with jacks or better.

stick to the rule of never limping until you get much better, learn how to build good ranges, play deceptively the right way, and learn how to play postflop properly.

also, you dont have to raise to 3bb every time just because you open raised. in a tournament, your raise size should be based on effective stacks. min raise with effective stack size between 18-30bb raise to 2.5x between 30-50bb and 3x with effective stacks larger than 50bb

I get much better when I started limping, and when I realise that AK, AQ are not such a great hands, but I talk only about micro stakes and elementary/high school league.
I beat most of the players on that level. Especially those who bet high with AK etc. on the preflop and then they go all-in postflop without any pair... AK is great to open push or check all-in in the middle/late stage of the tournaments, but as I mentioned – I play only micro stakes cash games and tournaments. I raise as you said in the last sentence. I limp AK with 15-20 BB, but not always. It depends...

Let's say you play turbo tournament you have $1300, BB is $100, you are under the gun, you bet $300, 2 players goes all-in, what you can do? Say bye bye to your $300. Or have ~35% chance to win.

I'm sure that on every level there are aggressive players that are most visible and they trying to force fold on almost every hand and every player. They want to steal anything no matter of what. And now I learned to deal with them.
 
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MadPanic

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I prefer mainly to limp with small/medium pocket pairs and low suited connectors. Anything else i want to play usually gets raised. if there is not too much action I even raise hands like K 10s, Q Jo, because if i turn a straight my hand is not too obvious. But I still have good chances of top-pair..
 
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Glebtyzhnyh90

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In my opinion with the top pair to play limp is just nonsense, it's better not to raise much, and if you reraise, then think about folding, for example with AK to play in the initial position of the table through calling the situation is normal, because the whole table is ahead and the probability is not bad that who Or raise. It all depends on the stage of the tournament, which players are at the table, and how many chips you have at this stage.
 
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MadPanic

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In my opinion with the top pair to play limp is just nonsense, it's better not to raise much, and if you reraise, then think about folding, for example with AK to play in the initial position of the table through calling the situation is normal, because the whole table is ahead and the probability is not bad that who Or raise. It all depends on the stage of the tournament, which players are at the table, and how many chips you have at this stage.
With top pair, I will always try to push any draws off the hand. With and open ender or flush draw chances of making your hand after the flop are 3:1 so I bet 1/2 - 3/4 the pot taking the pot odds away from them so they have to fold..

Theoretically..
 
Jankou36

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In my opinion with the top pair to play limp is just nonsense, it's better not to raise much, and if you reraise, then think about folding, for example with AK to play in the initial position of the table through calling the situation is normal, because the whole table is ahead and the probability is not bad that who Or raise. It all depends on the stage of the tournament, which players are at the table, and how many chips you have at this stage.

No one wrote about limping top pair...
 
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Dani_California

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I get much better when I started limping, and when I realise that AK, AQ are not such a great hands, but I talk only about micro stakes and elementary/high school league.
I beat most of the players on that level. Especially those who bet high with AK etc. on the preflop and then they go all-in postflop without any pair... AK is great to open push or check all-in in the middle/late stage of the tournaments, but as I mentioned – I play only micro stakes cash games and tournaments. I raise as you said in the last sentence. I limp AK with 15-20 BB, but not always. It depends...

I said earlier that you should never limp AK but I have to add something after reading this. Like I said, it's poker and there isn't any right way to play it so it's great that you have found something that works for you and makes you better, even if it's limping AK. You are right that some people overplay AK and lose their stack with nothing but A high so I really respect you for being able to see those cards that way, even though I still disagree about that limping. Just remember that sometimes you might find yourself in a situation I mentioned before when you hit a top pair or even two and your opponent gets lucky with his garbage by hitting a straight or something like that. But I think that you already know that. Good luck! :)
 
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thalesvin

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The tip I give you is always to analyze the villain, some limps are many acceptable inside the game however you from the margin for the villain to have a free card, you must always weigh if that is what you want.
 
mbrenneman0

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dont confuse a lower variance line with a better line
 
robertocoelho

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The limp risk is players with weak pre-flop hands, can see the flop and turn their hands into strong
 
Navin Sarabjeet

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Hi,
I wonder why PokerStars school always say "Never limp, make a raise or fold". I think there is a plenty of situations where limp is better than raise, especially in a turbo tournaments, where you can't risk your 3BB raise with medium hand like AQ or KJ against someones all-in.
Sometimes when I play super carefull (e.g. when I need to make 15% best in league) I limp even with AK, cause this hand needs a pair to be premium and I don't wanna risk a flip.
I also think it's great way to play in early stages of tournaments when blind are really small, you can see many flops and hit two pairs, threes or better.
What you think about limping and this Pokerschool rule?

There so many reasons why limping is not good, but the foremost is you
showing weakness when limping and can easily get raised pre-flop and end up losing valuable chips that you will need for a deep run.
So i will not advise limping in a pot in early position as a good move, because it can come with disastrous results just like what Alucard said in his reply.

So try not to limp in early positions with strong hands and gl at the tables:)
 
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