Was this legal to do?

So I was playing a 6 man SNG with the top 2 getting paid off. Now we are down to 3 and one player has been sit out for the majority of the game and does not seem likely to come back. He still has a decent amount of chips and would need quite a few hands to blind him out.

Me and the other player both have very healthy stack and it would really suck if either of us doesnt finish in the money. So I told him that we should blind the sit out player out and then play. It kinda went fine where he got some of his blinds and I got some of em. We did get into a few hands but no one got too aggressive.

My question is simply that is this legal to do what we did? What if the other player suddenly came back and complained after looking at the chat? Does he have any position to complain about this?

Technically it's legal as long as you both did not explicitly agree to any arrangement. Since you told him via chat it does make you 2 complicit but my guess is the guy passed out. ...just my 2c

It's considered to be collusion, if y'all agree to it, if both of you do it without saying that to each other then no problem. I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.

What you did is in fact considered collusion and is definitely against the rules. If you are caught -- and admitting to it on an open forum is an excellent way to be caught -- the site can lock your account and seize your funds. In fact, if you discussed it as you say, then I'm assuming you did so over game chat. Which is *really* dumb because now they have a record of the discussion.

Also, if it's blatantly obvious what you're doing, it doesn't matter whether you discussed it or not. It's still collusion.

Was the awol player on your right or your left.

If you say "Let's do this, so he'll do that." In any way shape or form, you're guilty of collusion. Whether the other guy agrees or not.

Don't do that.

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but realmoney, the truth is that u are trying to effect or potential change your opponent's decision, in other words not fair to the sitting out player!

but if u too are not talk but just in this situation, kind of cooperate play -- see Harrington poker VOL 2.-- in which u two are in the purpose of trying to get more equity by a third player who sitting out, and 100% fold to any bet!

that is alllowed!

I usually think or hope this kind of stuff is just understood at the poker tables.. Kinda like checking it down at the final table to knock someone out--- There should be no need for you to say anything to make that happen.

If it was me and I wanted to say something I would have said--- "Lets play quickly"

Yea its definitely collusion in a technical sense.. I do hate when people get chips than try to sit out till the cash tho.. But hey its out there just play it out..

dmorris68 said:

Also, if it's blatantly obvious what you're doing, it doesn't matter whether you discussed it or not. It's still collusion.

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Eh, you're going to need to show me a source on that (if you mean that it is enforceable).

PS themselves say that sitting out is a perfectly legal strategy. Both other players non-explicitly blinding out another player is perfectly legal as well.

The active player did not respond to me and I did not say anything more since I wasnt sure what I am doing is right. The sit out player never came back. This is just micro stakes SNG and coming here I am admitting that I wasnt sure so its not like I am intentionally guilty of something. The sit out player was sit out for the entire game basically and had a very little stack compared to us at that time. This really isnt a major deal to lock my account or something and I even came to ask about it so I am not worried about that. It wasnt my intention to do anything wrong.

Thanks everyone I get it now what to do in these situations and thats just play and hope the other player understands the situation as well.

Emperor IX said:

Eh, you're going to need to show me a source on that (if you mean that it is enforceable).

PS themselves say that sitting out is a perfectly legal strategy. Both other players non-explicitly blinding out another player is perfectly legal as well.

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Enforcement is up to the site. Collusion is without question a TOS violation. Many colluders have been busted without saying a word at the table -- it's plainly obvious to the trained eye when collusion is taking place.

Of course sitting out is a legal strategy, I didn't say otherwise. And the other players can take advantage of that, just like they can take advantage of other player tendencies, but they can't discuss it. I was just pointing out that a collusion finding doesn't require discussion at the table.

Thinker_145 said:

This is just micro stakes SNG and coming here I am admitting that I wasnt sure so its not like I am intentionally guilty of something. ... This really isnt a major deal to lock my account or something and I even came to ask about it so I am not worried about that. It wasnt my intention to do anything wrong.

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To be clear, I don't think anything will come of this. But when it comes to collusion, understand that it being a micro SNG doesn't matter. The amount in play doesn't determine whether it's collusion or not. Collusion is considered serious and grounds for all sorts of punitive actions against your account, so don't do it regardless of stake.

As to playing against a sitter, you can choose to play against the sitter any way you like. From a pure strategy standpoint, of course you should steal his blinds. What you can't do is agree with another player to something like "I take this one, you take that one, etc." and then avoiding playing against each other until the sitter is out. As an extreme example, if you folded AA preflop so your opponent could steal the sitters blind, that would be blatant and actionable collusion. I'm almost certain that PS or any other site would have an issue with that if it were discovered.

It would be nice if both players recognized the situation and "agreed" to blind the other guy out without having to type it into chat. I've seen it go both ways - where players silently agreed to blind out the absent player, and others where the other player was either oblivious to it or didn't care.

One fond memory I have was exactly that - where we were one player from the money (I think this was a 9 player SNG, with top 3 cashing) - and a player was sitting out. He was actually the short stack, and 2 of the other players (me included) were content to keep checking down until we blinded the other guy out. The 3rd guy wasn't playing along - raised into my BB with pocket Aces, got reraised all-in to find his AK was crushed into 4th place.

lol this is definitely collusion my friend, and pretty much you can NOT do that, very surprised they did not take your money from the SnG. and the other player, I understand what was going through your head and the situation is in fact a shi**y one but in the end it is still not legal. The consequences would probably be taking your money and seizing your account for a period of time. Furthermore discussing this on a open poker forum is probably not the best thing to do. Not very smart

Thinker_145 said:

Thanks everyone I get it now what to do in these situations and thats just play and hope the other player understands the situation as well.

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This sums it up. It should have been an unspoken agreement. Talking at the table in any way about future startegy and methods to team up in any way is collusion and is cheating.

Rather than let the small stack blind out, you should have applied increased pressure on the other player still in. He/she wouldn't want to bust before the player sitting out, so it was a good opportunity to build your stack up with aggression.

Yep, thats collusion. When somebody is sitting out like that, usually both active players know what to do without saying it. Seeing as how this was probably a $1 SNG, it was actually +EV to explain the situation to your opponent because 1) he probably wasn't smart enough to figure it out and 2) I don't think anybody is going to investigate the micros that closely for collusion lmao

If there is no discussion between players about blinding the third out then it cannot be collusion,Its mearly them taking advantage of the situation.

I find players like that , just sitting out . In my opinion , it's legal . Because it's maked to take some advantage . Why not ? If u want to play poker , PLAY . If u sit out and wait to come the money i am sure , it's not fair to the other players who are fighting for a good place . So .. The idea is : If u want money , fight for them , they are not coming sitting down and looking how the other are fighint for them !

trekmaster said:

If there is no discussion between players about blinding the third out then it cannot be collusion,Its mearly them taking advantage of the situation.

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Correct, as with all the other similar answers above. It may not be discussed, period. The silent, implicit collusion (ie blinding them out in a rapid fashion) is acceptable. Discussing it makes it a TOS violation and may result in you losing the prize money, all the way up to your account being suspended and terminated.

Emperor IX said:

Eh, you're going to need to show me a source on that (if you mean that it is enforceable).

PS themselves say that sitting out is a perfectly legal strategy. Both other players non-explicitly blinding out another player is perfectly legal as well.

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True, but I think the point is the one player who offered the blind out strategy is guilty of collusion (in other words - it is illegal) whether or not the other party responded (discussed) the idea. Just offering to collude is not considered okay.

Why ?

Loonbat said:

Correct, as with all the other similar answers above. It may not be discussed, period. The silent, implicit collusion (ie blinding them out in a rapid fashion) is acceptable. Discussing it makes it a TOS violation and may result in you losing the prize money, all the way up to your account being suspended and terminated.

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I personal don't think in this mode . Can this happen ? To lose the prize money ? And to suspend your account ? I think this it's not fair . Sample, think cause those can happens just if the person who had losting the blinds , see the discution between that other 2 guys and if he see and report the situation MAYBE , just maybe can put this problem with prize and account . And to be in the loser person , i see the discution and i am asking my self , why i didn't play ? Why i had putting up my self on sit out ? Can u think about this to . '' my opinion ''

I've been in a similar position before and the other player asked. I declined because I had postition on the sitout and even folded SB to BB when the sitout was virtually all in because the other player was so tight to get the extra money.
He even said I was cheating to let the other player win lol

This has happened to me before, there were three of us and there were two of them sitting out. However they were cheats, they were helping each other out on the final table of a mini comp by bullying people out of the pot together then instafolding a min bet. We reported them but it took too long and nothing happened, they kept getting disconnected and then eventually sat out and we felt robbed. Since it was the final table we didnt want to let those cheats win by us battling it out so we took the blinds alternatively instinctively.

ha, yeah, ehmm ofc its legal, it isnt your problem he needs to buy better internet i qeuss

Me to .

babydrago9 said:

This has happened to me before, there were three of us and there were two of them sitting out. However they were cheats, they were helping each other out on the final table of a mini comp by bullying people out of the pot together then instafolding a min bet. We reported them but it took too long and nothing happened, they kept getting disconnected and then eventually sat out and we felt robbed. Since it was the final table we didnt want to let those cheats win by us battling it out so we took the blinds alternatively instinctively.

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Yes , it's exactly what i said . It's not normal to other people watching from sit out how the other fight for blinds and for prize . If u report that , you need to wait and wait and wait .. To waiting for nothing . I was in your case to and the solution was like your . '' If you want blinds , money , prize , position ... Fight for them '' !
In the problem , i think it's perfect legal . It's not your problem cause he is sitting out and it's watching how u fight for blinds with the others guys .