Leading into the preflop raiser...

I have been playing low stakes STTs and MTTs quite a bit lately and have seen a recurring theme. Leading into the preflop raiser (usually me, haha.) Is this normally a sign of strength at these limits or an attempt at a bluff? I understand it depends on the villain in question, but I was wondering if, in general, I should be wary of this?

I just cant think of a reason for leading out. If you hit and your opponent missed he is likely to fold and you miss out on a cbet you could have gained by not check raising. If the opponent hit the flop he is likely to raise, giving him more chips if it was an attempt at a wierd bluff. Or he calls and you are left wondering and out of position on 4th street.

I have been taking this as a sign of strength and folding quite a few hands. Am I just thinking about this too much at these low stakes or what?

Generally speaking.. in the micros... they're leading out weak here (ie. TPWK.. MPMK stuff). Better players might be leading out in same spot with a monster (ie. set) to induce a raise from pf raiser (.. looking as if they're a donk.. donkbetting OOP as you'll often see... for deception). Player reads are kinda important. For the most part.. they're weak.

Wardo420 said:

I just cant think of a reason for leading out.

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One logical reason for doing so would be that you have a drawing hand and wish to see another card. Therefore, you lead out with a modest bet in order to make the pre-flop raiser feel insecure and discourage him from making a large c-bet which would deny you the odds to continue.

That is between thinking players, however. I gather your opponents are not likely to be at that level ?

Egon Towst said:

One logical reason for doing so would be that you have a drawing hand and wish to see another card. Therefore, you lead out with a modest bet in order to make the pre-flop raiser feel insecure and discourage him from making a large c-bet which would deny you the odds to continue.

That is between thinking players, however. I gather your opponents are not likely to be at that level ?

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Depending upon villain... you might be putting yourself in a bad spot here too though.... if villain raises us off of our draw.

Poker Orifice said:

Depending upon villain... you might be putting yourself in a bad spot here too though.... if villain raises us off of our draw.

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I agree, when you need to see a card, see it! Don't put yourself in a position where you could have won the pot (and a bigger one at that) and ended up losing it because you didn't take the advantage. It's for that same reason that you check or flat call your final hand on the river (which you might win) when you're unsure of your opponent's range and there are scary cards in front of you...

Then again, it all depends on your reads. If you've got a good read on the villain, and you sense a weakness, then by all means steal every pot possible .

Poker Orifice said:

Depending upon villain... you might be putting yourself in a bad spot here too though.... if villain raises us off of our draw.

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That`s certainly a risk. It`s a difficult one to quantify and depends on the opponent.

There`s also the potential benefit that you are apt to get more money in the pot if your draw hits, since betting the draw OOP is an unusual play and disguises your hand.

Poker Orifice said:

Depending upon villain... you might be putting yourself in a bad spot here too though.... if villain raises us off of our draw.

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Isn't the a big part of donking the flop with a big draw so that you can get your opponent to raise light (and thus, allowing you to bet/3-bet it all in?).

Be more inclined to donk bet when....

- You want value, and your opponent is unlikely to c-bet.
- With weak semi-bluffs if your opponent is likely to fold to a donk bet.
- With strong semi-bluffs deep when your opponent will raise you light.
- When stack sizes make bet/3-betting the preferable way to get stacks in.
- You're in a multi-way pot with a fish.

c9h13no3 said:

Isn't the a big part of donking the flop with a big draw so that you can get your opponent to raise light (and thus, allowing you to bet/3-bet it all in?).

Be more inclined to donk bet when....

- You want value, and your opponent is unlikely to c-bet.
- With weak semi-bluffs if your opponent is likely to fold to a donk bet.
- With strong semi-bluffs deep when your opponent will raise you light.
- When stack sizes make bet/3-betting the preferable way to get stacks in.
- You're in a multi-way pot with a fish.

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"BIG draw"..<< For Sure!! Wasn't stated as being a 'big draw' though.

Leading into the preflop raiser is what's known as a "donk bet", and it tends to be a sign of weakness from all but the most skilled players. Often, high stakes cash game players do this move to throw opponents off balance and to balance their range (so that they aren't always check raising their huge hands, aren't always check raising their big draws, etc.). If you are playing any online tourney under $55 or any live tourney under $500, I would interpret it as weak, if you have a big hand consider floating to induce more bets, if you have a weak hand consider floating to take away the pot if they check turn, etc. I usually assume a player donk betting has either top pair awful kicker or middle pair.

The guys pretty much explained it. But one thing that you should watch is what they have done before. If they made a donk bet and got reraised, did they shove? Did they call? If so, what did they have on the river? Where they on a draw? If so, they were trying to minimize their equity in the pot to see the turn. If they folded to reraise, they probably had a flush draw. Or maybe second pair.

But see what their patterns are. You can then get a better read on what their style is. A donk bet means so much to so many different people.

I use the "donk bet" all the time. But you must have reasons to use it. If I do it on the same table -- lets say a final table where even the micro stakes players are paying attention to what you do -- its because Im trying to play them on a psychological level. I do it once and fold to a raise. I do it again and shove (with a big draw) to a raise. Then it becomes quite profitable because some players get scared to raise for fear of the shove. But the opponents I'm playing against will determine what strategy I use to make sure Im getting my fair share of the chips.

And yes, If I have a monster like a set, especially AAA, Im leading and probably betting pot because it looks weaker.