late tournament stage reshoving

K

krezip

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Total posts
59
Chips
0
I've lately begun to get my act together in tournaments and making more and more deep runs. Which is a good thing.

Now I'm encountering a new "problem", which is that I seem to bust by running my hand into stronger pocket pairs. It seems like the later the stage of the tournament, the tighter people are reshoving/shoving when they still have a stack >15bbs.

Is this true?

Here are two examples:

example 1
100 players left out of 5000, I have somewhere between 25 & 30bbs on the button and have 99. UTG (5bbs) raises allin, UTG+1 (bad player, calls anything) flat calls.

I look ahead - I cover the SB, which has half my stack. Only the BB covers me. I reraise all-in to isolate with my 99. BB wakes up with AA. Needless to say - UTG+1 calls off with KJo.

example 2
45 players left out of 2000. I have 22bbs left and am UTG+2 and I have TT. UTG+1 minraises. He has me covered. Most players at the table are around 20-30bbs.

I reraise allin - button wakes up with AA.

These are the standard plays right? There are only 4 or 5 hands that realistically call me and are ahead in example 1 (AA-QQ - does JJ or even TT call?) And in example 2 I could see myself flatting, but am I really going to fold the flop or to a reshove?

And how do these scenarios change on the final table, when ICM really comes into play?
 
K

krezip

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Total posts
59
Chips
0
Example 3 - earlier today

130 players left - I have 12 bbs in the CO and raise allin with 66 - run into AA, but win - if this is not a standard spot then I don't know what is


Example 4 - just happened now

I have 19bbs left and have ATs in the cutoff. 78 players left out of 7400
I raise allin and run into JJ from the SB

Is this a raise/fold spot knowing that SB is the big stack who's been really aggressive?
 
M

miktux

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Total posts
55
Chips
0
I myself try to avoid all ins becouse its what happens you can have AA OR AKs still lose for anyone. I have situations when i put all in with someone With like AJ and he have AQ and something and lose it, with small pairs all ins is worst for me i try to get into floop cheep and farm my sets. When i played one tournament of 2,5k people i reach final table and win 6place in time i reached my 6place i was shove my all in only 2 times. I did played 8hours.
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 13, 2017
Total posts
1,501
Awards
15
Chips
0
There is a good line I have read recently from Jeff Gross (you can check it out in his thread), where someone asked him how to get to the FTs of the tournaments..
He basically said that you need to take such spots, same like yours are, to be able to acquire chips and stacks big enough to get to the FT.
He also said that you will bust out earlier more (in your case around the 50th place) but you will also get to the FT more often, and that is where the money is. Basically a standard risk vs reward situations.

I don't see a problem with your spots, and your plays. I would maaaybe fold that 99 hand just cause of that UTG+1 player who can have any 2, meaning JT as much as AA or 22s... too many combos that you are flipping against which is not good for you, and you figured him to be a calling station so you had to guess he would call your shove there. Other then that, I see no real problem! If you think these beats happen too often, then tighten up, and shove with monsters only.
 
T

tmfnsanders

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Total posts
128
Chips
0
hands 1 and 2 seem fine. I'm shoving the 9s all day simply because there's so much money in the pot already, even better if we can get the flatcaller to fold. The TT is a little dicey cuz it's against UTG opener and 6 left to act behind, but I think I still go with it. We can't really help it if one of the players behind us wake up with a hand or the opener is holding the top of their range. Just keep in mind how many people act behind you and their stacks when you make the decisions.

hand 3- as you said standard

hand 4- you asked if this should be a bet/fold? I'm always bet/calling in this spot vs an aggressive sb. ATs is a great hand to minbet/induce him to spaz it in with Arag, low pairs, broadway hands that we could be dominating, etc- I think we absolutely crush his reshoving range if he's as aggressive as you're making out. Even when he has JJ you still hit like 30% of the time so it's better for him to have JJ here than AK,AQ,AJ

Also you really shouldn't be worrying too much about how many people are left or how many played unless there are immediate cash implications. Hell, I don't even look at average stack- all I consider is my stack size relative to the blinds and the stack sizes of the players left in the pot (ie: I sometimes fold hands that should be shoves vs shorties in the blinds just to preserve my table image and help ensure my shoves keep going through in the future) and make my plays accordingly.

The buyin is also a very imporant factor that needs to be included when you post in strat, as the play in the higher buyins will be much closer to optimal than the play at the lower buyins will be. And you WANT your opponents to be tightening up at these stages, you are just literally printing chips when you can jam 3 times an orbit or reshove over people who are raise folding a lot- This is where and how you should be accumulating a stack, NOT AT SHOWDOWN. And as we already discussed most of the time when they call you typically have 30-40% equity to win the pot anyways.
 
K

krezip

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Total posts
59
Chips
0
Thanks for the kind replies. In the meantime I made a final table again by being a bit more aware of the spots and by trying to not let it bother me too much.

Simple math says that not too many people wake up with hands behind me and that's proven the case in other tourneys and shoving spots.

Thanks for the advice!
 
pepsilv

pepsilv

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Total posts
603
Chips
0
Sometimes I try to go cheap in the flop and if i hit, definetly you know I am in, but if I miss or get someone shoving behind or infront i make it easy. JUST FOLD AND WAIT FOR BETTER. Good luck m friend.
 
D

Darth_Moola

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Total posts
276
Chips
2
What to do?

I've lately begun to get my act together in tournaments and making more and more deep runs. Which is a good thing.

Now I'm encountering a new "problem", which is that I seem to bust by running my hand into stronger pocket pairs. It seems like the later the stage of the tournament, the tighter people are reshoving/shoving when they still have a stack >15bbs.

Is this true?

Here are two examples:

example 1
100 players left out of 5000, I have somewhere between 25 & 30bbs on the button and have 99. UTG (5bbs) raises allin, UTG+1 (bad player, calls anything) flat calls.

I look ahead - I cover the SB, which has half my stack. Only the BB covers me. I reraise all-in to isolate with my 99. BB wakes up with AA. Needless to say - UTG+1 calls off with KJo.

example 2
45 players left out of 2000. I have 22bbs left and am UTG+2 and I have TT. UTG+1 minraises. He has me covered. Most players at the table are around 20-30bbs.

I reraise allin - button wakes up with AA.

These are the standard plays right? There are only 4 or 5 hands that realistically call me and are ahead in example 1 (AA-QQ - does JJ or even TT call?) And in example 2 I could see myself flatting, but am I really going to fold the flop or to a reshove?

And how do these scenarios change on the final table, when ICM really comes into play?

Example 3 - earlier today

130 players left - I have 12 bbs in the CO and raise allin with 66 - run into AA, but win - if this is not a standard spot then I don't know what is


Example 4 - just happened now

I have 19bbs left and have ATs in the cutoff. 78 players left out of 7400
I raise allin and run into JJ from the SB

Is this a raise/fold spot knowing that SB is the big stack who's been really aggressive?
I think Ex 1 may have been a fold, just because it puts you in a bad spot to be multiway when you know people will call. 99 is okay, but even kj can hit a K or J and beat 99 and that's not even including callers with better pairs or suck outs in a multiway pot. That's just a tough spot. Ex. 2 is standard in my opinion, but if anyone else says otherwise, then you can obviously consider their moves. Ex. 3 is just bad luck. Ex. 4 puts you in an awkward spot, and i'm not sure there's a solid correct answer. This one may just be a read you get. But ATs is a tough hand to throw away for sure. If you were on the border of the next money level, folding could be very attractive.
 
gabpoker

gabpoker

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Total posts
625
Awards
5
Chips
8
There is a good line I have read recently from Jeff Gross (you can check it out in his thread), where someone asked him how to get to the FTs of the tournaments..
He basically said that you need to take such spots, same like yours are, to be able to acquire chips and stacks big enough to get to the FT.
He also said that you will bust out earlier more (in your case around the 50th place) but you will also get to the FT more often, and that is where the money is. Basically a standard risk vs reward situations.


This is how you win tournaments. You have to take these spots and sometimes you will loose but when you win you will be in a better spot to win. All the money is in the top 3 spots. When looking at the best tournament players results they have many bubbles and min cashes and then a bunch of wins but not many mid range cashes because of this.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
imho, your examples just show us that you are doing it right, consider them as coolers. Too many players play too tight in late stages and never build up a big stack even though they have opportunities to do so. If anything, shoving little light is much better than being tight.
 
K

krezip

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Total posts
59
Chips
0
imho, your examples just show us that you are doing it right, consider them as coolers. Too many players play too tight in late stages and never build up a big stack even though they have opportunities to do so. If anything, shoving little light is much better than being tight.
Thanks - one of the things I've applying as well (and notice that some of the more successful players are doing as well) is to shove on aggro players that raise light. Especially when I have a shoving stack this works really well as they're forced to fold out a lot of their range since their raising range is lighter.

Unfortunately I notice it happening ON me as well when I have a bigger stack and there's thinking players at the table :)
 
Erpherk

Erpherk

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Total posts
330
Chips
0
I would be lying if i pretended to have all the answers, but.... I think you should play a little tighter in late stages of tourneys. making big lay downs is the hardest part of the game for myself but can save your life if you got a nice grasp on the hand. Example 1 2 and 3 are played fine in my book. Running into monsters is part of the game... that's when hitting a set feels the best =D
 
Top