J
Jamuka7657
Rock Star
Silver Level
22.5 big blinds would be considered short stacked, but not short enough where you have to shove most playable hands. In the situation you described I think a raise is appropriate. KK is good enough where you can try to induce players to call or reraise you. With a middle pair a shove would be more appropriate.
Chief talking bull
Visionary
Bronze Level
It's tough to say because you can play the same hand so many different ways in the same position and can still be right or wrong. The only difference is how well did it work for you in that moment. You just have to play the way you feel it. Listen to your inner voice unless he doesn't know what he's talking about.
slurredreaction
Rock Star
Silver Level
I would bet 3x the blinds and pray someone re-raises me. If I do get callers and there's no A on the flop i'm moving half of my leftover stack in. I don't like many players in the hand when I have a pocket pair. I try to get heads up so my chances of winning are greater.
pancho_1954
Rock Star
Platinum Level
I would only increase the bet a little, and I would see how the play is developing, how would be the behavior of the players and then decide what my next step would be, of course taking into account the flop
radartodd69
Rock Star
Silver Level
I would go all in from such an early position. If you just raise 3x or 5x or whatever, you put yourself in a position to get called by more people who have a better position than you. Pocket kings are vulnerable after the flop vs. too many players.
M
Mikeloti13
Rock Star
Silver Level
Raise like you usually do. Someone raise 3x blinds me personally 2.2 blinds and 2.8. I try to make it as random as possible so i dont become predictable during the tournament. Sometimes i raise 2.2 with AA and sometimes 2.8 with some suited connectors. On the other hand, if someone 3 bets you , you should then 4bet all in because you are a little short stacked.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
I agree with these responses:
They highlight how KK is strong enough that you really don't mind whatever happens if we just raise small, but with some other hand types we sort of prefer to just take it down (or force the all in right here and right now).
From a philosophical standpoint, the whole concept of "short stacked" is a little outdated imo and I think you're trying to also ask the point at which it becomes necessary to choose shove or fold as your only two options. There will probably always be a stack depth where it's mathematically correct to pick one of those two (and not raise smaller), but over time, poker theory has pushed this number first larger and then smaller.
If you look back ~15 years ago, it would be considered crazy to go all in on a 10bb stack with a weak hand because you still have room to play, and you'd probably be doing some limping too. Then 5 years ago it'd be considered sort of weird to do anything other than jam or fold a ~15bb stack. Today, the number has sort of shifted downward. You can find some pretty competent opponents minraising off of 10 and 11bb stacks, and even folding to jams sometimes.
So there's definitely grey area here, but particularly in soft fields, you won't go too wrong playing straight up, and just trying to maximize value with your really good hands, and maximizing fold equity with the rest when you get down to that ~20bb zone.
They highlight how KK is strong enough that you really don't mind whatever happens if we just raise small, but with some other hand types we sort of prefer to just take it down (or force the all in right here and right now).
From a philosophical standpoint, the whole concept of "short stacked" is a little outdated imo and I think you're trying to also ask the point at which it becomes necessary to choose shove or fold as your only two options. There will probably always be a stack depth where it's mathematically correct to pick one of those two (and not raise smaller), but over time, poker theory has pushed this number first larger and then smaller.
If you look back ~15 years ago, it would be considered crazy to go all in on a 10bb stack with a weak hand because you still have room to play, and you'd probably be doing some limping too. Then 5 years ago it'd be considered sort of weird to do anything other than jam or fold a ~15bb stack. Today, the number has sort of shifted downward. You can find some pretty competent opponents minraising off of 10 and 11bb stacks, and even folding to jams sometimes.
So there's definitely grey area here, but particularly in soft fields, you won't go too wrong playing straight up, and just trying to maximize value with your really good hands, and maximizing fold equity with the rest when you get down to that ~20bb zone.
R
rmcneice
Rock Star
Silver Level
I would raise here about 4 BB which is a standard (2.5 to 3) + 1 for the limper. I want to limit the field and at the best have only the limper and perhaps the BB come along. If we get a lot of callers behind they are like any other pocket pair pretty much SET or FOLD to any bet.
Post flop they are more than likely still just a pocket pair so play them carefully.
Post flop they are more than likely still just a pocket pair so play them carefully.
S
scubed
Visionary
Silver Level
Though there is no default way to play, you are raising (not shoving) KK here every time with 20+ big blinds. My thought is to raise pot.
What is the caller (limper) in front of you limping with? Would he limp with AA? If not - you have him dominated. In raising you want to fold out Ace-Rag as they will have ~23% chance of Ace on flop. If the caller (limper) folds, oh well - you picked up 2.5 big blinds.
If the original caller re-raises you know you are up against a strong hand, at this time you can decide whether shoving or flatting will be more profitable based raiser's tendencies. Perhaps flatting since this would close the betting round. If an Ace flops - you can get away from the hand, if not, you can shove.
With 40 players left (probably ~15 get paid?) you want to maximize your profit with the KK the best you can. You can't fold to the $$ with 22 big blinds. This strong big pair only comes around 1 in 221 hands so you'll want to use it to the maximum.
ScooperNova
Hair in a Biscuit
Loyaler
There is a lot of good advice here, even though some of it is contradictory. Poker is a funny game like that.
Some people like a shove in the position described, because they fear there will be too many callers, lessening the power of KK. I would suggest that a smaller raise would induce about the same amount of folding because players are weary of a shorter stack making any type of significant preflop raise from early position. Players will feel like it's an attempt to lure them in and act accordingly.
Some people like a shove in the position described, because they fear there will be too many callers, lessening the power of KK. I would suggest that a smaller raise would induce about the same amount of folding because players are weary of a shorter stack making any type of significant preflop raise from early position. Players will feel like it's an attempt to lure them in and act accordingly.
madjek
Rock Star
Silver Level
You are folding KK to 3x reraise preflop? I guess you only play 2 or 3 hands an entire tournament then? I think you can play it any way suggested here, you don't have to do same thing every time either, imo goal is to get as many chips in preflop as possible, preferably all in with one caller. But if I min raise, I'm doing it HOPING someone 3bets so I can 4bet, certainly not folding KK preflop ever.