KQ on the button

SicKBeATz

SicKBeATz

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9man sng blinds 50/100

1 limper in the CO. Tight player has about 10bb's.

I have KQo 3500 chips players behind sb 1400 bb 2600.

Is this a good shove? I'm always worried shoving here against the bb

But I don't want to just raise and give the limper good odds to call/shove flop.
 
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Tgen

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why shove at 35bb? you are risking too much for no reason , limp from co at 10bb seems very suspicious it may indicate a very strong hand , the options here are either fold/limp/raise , i think the hand is too strong to fold but also can trap you in a tough spot if you raise and co has a strong hand , i think limping is probably the best play here.
 
dirtyoldog

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i agree why even think shove i dont get it ya if your sick of playing shove.are peaple that scared to play a hand just play it
 
SicKBeATz

SicKBeATz

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i think limping is probably the best play here.
I don't think I'm ever limping behind a shortstack here, it is possible that they limp with a strong hand but very unlikely from the CO imo.

Early pos it would look supsicious or if I had been overaggressive maybe but I'm fairly certain that if they have a hand good enough to call it's going to likely be a race situation and this bet will be able to fold out a lot of Arags.

The only player I'm concerned with is the BB not the CO or SB as I have both of them outchipped 3-1.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Raise 4x and see what happens. Reassess your hand if you get reraised.


I agree with the others. Why shove here? Play the hand like any other decent starting hand in late position.
 
SicKBeATz

SicKBeATz

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Raise 4x and see what happens. Reassess your hand if you get reraised.


I agree with the others. Why shove here? Play the hand like any other decent starting hand in late position.
To keep from having to make a tough decision postflop if I flop air. If I raise 4bb's I'm pretty much committed to the shortstack and don't want to call the remaining 6bb's the times I miss the flop if they decide to shove.

I also don't want them to get good odd's with drawing hands like J10/89 or other limping hands when I believe I can get them to fold out or call behind preflop since we're on the bubble w 5 left.

That was my thought process
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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To keep from having to make a tough decision postflop if I flop air. If I raise 4bb's I'm pretty much committed to the shortstack and don't want to call the remaining 6bb's the times I miss the flop if they decide to shove.

I also don't want them to get good odd's with drawing hands like J10/89 or other limping hands when I believe I can get them to fold out or call behind preflop since we're on the bubble w 5 left.

That was my thought process

Fair enough. But the problem with shoving here is this: if someone calls you are likely behind with K-Q. I just think it's wise to see a flop without committing a huge portion of your chips. If you miss, so be it. You would still be healthy with 30 BBs.

Once again, only my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.
 
SicKBeATz

SicKBeATz

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Fair enough. But the problem with shoving here is this: if someone calls you are likely behind with K-Q. I just think it's wise to see a flop without committing a huge portion of your chips. If you miss, so be it. You would still be healthy with 30 BBs.

Once again, only my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

True but out of the 3 other players still left in the hand there is only 1 player that can do a lot of damage to my stack. If I'm wrong and either of the two shortstacks call and I lose I still have over a 20 bb stack to work with.

I guess I should of asked this question instead, how often is the BB going to have a hand good enough to call me with here.

BB made what I consider a pretty marginal call with AJs with 26bb's so I was slightly behind but pretty much a flip and I made Q's otr.
 
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samuraihuang

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I would not shove here. In this position, raising 5x BB would be better and then C-bet flop for half-pot and see what develops. At 50/100 level there's not much advantage to shoving here with your stack size.
 
left52side

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As mentioned before why shove in this spot.
there is absolutly no reason to try to isolate that much or risk your tournament for no reason at all.
I would have make a standard button raise,maybe even a little bigger which is expected from button,and try to get value for your somewhat premium hand.
Shove to me is just silly,all to just win blinds and possibly run into trouble.
 
Beanfacekilla

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True but out of the 3 other players still left in the hand there is only 1 player that can do a lot of damage to my stack. If I'm wrong and either of the two shortstacks call and I lose I still have over a 20 bb stack to work with.

I guess I should of asked this question instead, how often is the BB going to have a hand good enough to call me with here.

BB made what I consider a pretty marginal call with AJs with 26bb's so I was slightly behind but pretty much a flip and I made Q's otr.

Let's think about how a shove is perceived by others here.

You probably don't do this with Q-Q~A-A. So villain may think you have something like low or medium PPs, a couple of broadway cards, or some wacky suited one gappers.

Villain is possibly ahead, and makes the call with a better hand. You said it was a marginal call. Maybe so, but A-J is ahead of K-Q, regardless.

In all honesty, it was a foolish play, and you lucked out. You could have just as easily won the pot using position, without risking your entire stack.

Let's say A-J calls and he snaps you off... Doesn't look like such a good move then. You are risking a ton to win a little. No disrespect, but it's a foolish gamble.

Don't let the lucky Q go to your head. It was an unnecessary risk. Playing small ball is sometimes a safer and smarter play.

Edit: The shove looks like you don't want any action. That is why some may not give you credit for a big hand.
 
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Raise 4x and see what happens. At least make the BB and CO make the tougher decision first. Either way, you will still have position.
Zero reason to shove. If SB/BB call a shove you probably in big trouble.
You said limper in CO is a tight player. He propably wants to see a flop cheap with a hand like you said. QJ J/10 8/9 small pair or other suited connectors. May be A-rag but doubtful. If he had a bigger hand (being a tight player), he is definitely raising and least min. He had a chance to raise and did not use it, no reason to think he slow playing at this point from CO. He would most likely fold to a decent raise because he is not going to put his tourney on line with marginal hand pre flop if he is a tight player.
If you raise 4x and it is folded around to CO and he shoves, so be it. You may be behind but if you are I would only think marginally and only to a few hands. (A-rag, which doubtful he has anyway and small pairs). Now you have odds to call.
If worried about BB doing damage, definitely don't shove or limp. If you shove, most likely only going to be called by BB if has monster...then you are behind and risking your tourney.
Don't limp bc then BB can check it with some random holding that you have ZERO info on and could potentially cripple you if he hits and you get a piece of the flop as well.
If you raise and BB shoves, and 3 bets large, may be let it go and find a better spot.
Again, make them make the tougher decision first by raising.
 
slickboss

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i think that if you shove with kq pre you might get a caller like the one with 10bb i think just call see what hits the flop no need to lose half your stack with three people left if you hit your card check let them push you call easy as that
 
Lucothefish

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To keep from having to make a tough decision postflop if I flop air. If I raise 4bb's I'm pretty much committed to the shortstack and don't want to call the remaining 6bb's the times I miss the flop if they decide to shove.

I also don't want them to get good odd's with drawing hands like J10/89 or other limping hands when I believe I can get them to fold out or call behind preflop since we're on the bubble w 5 left.

That was my thought process

Raising bigger to make decisions easier is a valid tactic, but it's something you should be doing less and less as you improve. If you're the best player at the table then this sort of thinking is clearly suboptimal.

Aren't there 4 left, not 5? Or have you left out a HJ fold?

Raise to 3x or 3.5x so you can still get away light if either of the blinds wake up. If CO shoves over preflop you can snap call, if he flats and shoves flop you can evaluate.

Don't worry about giving CO odds. They're not as good as you think and with only 10bbs behind he shouldn't be calling / shoving without the goods here.
 
BlackMoth5

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I'd raise 3 BB and see how he reacts. I don't mean to repeat, but def no need to shove here.
 
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rawone

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A short stack may limp a very big hand (even AA) just to try to get some action to go all in on the flop or turn if things look reasonable. They can look to perhaps take a healthy pot if everyone folds out, and even better if they get more than one caller to their made hand.

Shoving against a small stack limping sort of defeats the purpose, and the "wounded animal" may call you directly with a better than than you have.
 
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only_bridge

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What kind of tournament is this?
If its a freeroll then you will get called by Ax.
 
vinylspiros

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that deep u cant shove with that kind of a hand. it doesnt make any sense to me.
 
steveiam

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You dont need to shove at this stage, raise 3-4bb and take it from there. If he reraises fold.
 
BlackMoth5

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I'd limp the majority of the time, and I would raise 3-4 BB some times depending on how the other players perceive you (Have you been tight or loose?). I would prefer to limp so that I don't risk inducing a re-raise.
 
SicKBeATz

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I'd limp the majority of the time, and I would raise 3-4 BB some times depending on how the other players perceive you (Have you been tight or loose?). I would prefer to limp so that I don't risk inducing a re-raise.

Well again I don't think I could ever justify limping in that spot. I think I'd be better off just folding preflop than limping behind a shortstack with only 10bb's.

However I was playing results oriented b/c of a similar spot on another table with AJ and the shove wasn't the right play.

Tks all for the replies :)
 
aa88wildbill

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I think arguments can be made for shoving, raising, and folded. It all comes down to your read of the players.
 
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