KK w/ 8 callers

My first post! Hopefully descriptive enough.
$230 DS(20k) live tourney $20k gtd 200 players left
5th level 25/100/200
Been at table for a bit. lots of limping, check/folding, and only top pairs winning pots that have really only been checked down. Pre-flop raisers (3x or 4x) get 1 caller if any.

hero: UTG 17,500 stack, UTG+1: 12,500, UTG +2: 22,500 (very good player, have plaed a bit with hime before), MP1: 9k, MP2: 40k (big Stack) lots of ace/x hands, in lots of pots, HJ: 25k nitty,CU: 15k limpitous (had just double up on a hand I will post later, BTN: 20k new to table, SB: 10k aggressive when he's got it, BB: 7k (absent)
(stacks besides mine are as close to approxiate as possible)

Hero: First decent hand pre-flop
Raise to 800 UTG
UTG+1: call ,UTG+2: call, MP1:call, MP2:call, HJ:call, CU:call, BTN: call, SB:call BB:fold(absent)
POT: 7,600
FLOP:
SB: check
HERO: 16,700 left
WHAT NOW?
Also any critisism, advice, etc!
THX

Welcome to CC, ouch what a hand.

Check/fold and then go somewhere to cry?

alchemistkid said:

My first post! Hopefully descriptive enough.
$230 DS(20k) live tourney $20k gtd 200 players left
5th level 25/100/200
Been at table for a bit. lots of limping, check/folding, and only top pairs winning pots that have really only been checked down. Pre-flop raisers (3x or 4x) get 1 caller if any.

hero: UTG 17,500 stack, UTG+1: 12,500, UTG +2: 22,500 (very good player, have plaed a bit with hime before), MP1: 9k, MP2: 40k (big Stack) lots of ace/x hands, in lots of pots, HJ: 25k nitty,CU: 15k limpitous (had just double up on a hand I will post later, BTN: 20k new to table, SB: 10k aggressive when he's got it, BB: 7k (absent)
(stacks besides mine are as close to approxiate as possible)

Hero: First decent hand pre-flop
Raise to 800 UTG
UTG+1: call ,UTG+2: call, MP1:call, MP2:call, HJ:call, CU:call, BTN: call, SB:call BB:fold(absent)
POT: 7,600
FLOP:
SB: check
HERO: 16,700 left
WHAT NOW?
Also any critisism, advice, etc!
THX

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bet half pot and see where you at. any heavy action im out of there , on a dry flop such as this you might still have the best hand. or check and eveluate the action, if heavy actition then, probably curse alittle and let the cowboys go .Still early in the tornament so either way im playing this very cautiosly. If for exaple UTG +2 is betting out with 6 players behind him , then thinking might be behind , however if BTN bets after every one checks , probably seeing a turn.

bet, and go from there. i wouldn't be too keen on folding, but i'd be looking to not be all in with this hand by the river.


didnt read stack sizes/flop size.

that makes things trickier.probably just betting and getting this in, it's just such a dry flop for me. ALso, live reads will help with this one, you hopefully have been paying a lot of attention to your table so you may be able to pick something up. so betting and folding vs some players, and betting getting it in vs pretty much everyone i dont know. too many overpairs like 88-10's think they are good here and will probably go along with you.

Very dry board so bet for value here, 3500-4000 and then go from there.

I would have to agree with a half pot bet here. if you get a big raise you have plenty of fold equity here. You might still have the best hand here. If it goes all the way to showdown or an all in and you lose at least you go it in with a good. I have been busted a time or 2 with KK

I would bet for sure, re-evaluate afterwards. It isn't too hard of a spot, you raised pre now follow up on that dry board. I prefer this line instead of check/fold check/raise. I don't get KK's often enough to be folding them. You say you haven't been playing too many hands. If you get resistance you can slow down for sure.

I would bet around 2k-3k and then see what kind of action follows. I wouldn't shove or check - dont think those are the right plays. If you get more than 1 caller, I would be prepared to fold. Maybe an ace or a king comes on the river and that could make your decision a little easier.

I would agree with the half pot bet here with the only fear of opposing trips.

Nobody has mentioned how your equity diminishes in multi way pots and nobody has discussed reverse implied odds.

I would certainly bet here.
I think you have the best hand still,like mentioned before I would suggest half pot bet to hopefully isolate to see where you are. I certainly would think that pocket 7's,2's or 4's would probbly not have flatted your raise pre flop. that to me doesnt make since. So personally I would think I was in good shape. I would worry about small blind perhaps having a gut shot possibility,but not anyone else in hand,unless they just horrible players flatting with crazy cards. but as mentioned before they seem pretty decent players,so I couldnt see that.
I would definatly bet in this spot.
And yes welcome to cardschat. have fun there are lots of great people here

outcome

OK so here was the thought process behind what I did and outcome .

Right after my WTF moment and then the you gotta be kidding me.

My next thought was I hope an A drops on the flop so I can get the hell outta here.
The Flop

I did not see it as a very dry board at all for a few reasons.

Mainly, I HAD 8 callers!!!!

1. I really wasn't thinking PP of the 2's 4's 7's just bc as left52side pointed out that that doesn't make sense really from the early guys. The later guys maybe but I really did not think so considering there early play.

2.Obviously way too many people play A rag so I am thinking A3 A5 have gutshots and that would not be out of the realm of possibilty

3. Here was my biggest concern, which noone has mentioned in their posts. The late callers having the OES draws w 5/6. It would make complete sense for the later guys to have it. I know I would be calling with connetors if I had 5, 6, or 7 callers in from of me. the impied odds would be huge if you hit hard and you had position.
This was probably my BIGGEST concern.

So I thought about what to do:
1. Check- NO, I really do not want the chance of giving a free card to anyone if checked around (which had been done on numerous hands previous to this). Then maybe flat or check-raise if any action.

2. bet 2k. NO-leaves them the odds to stick around with practically any type of draw outside of flush and I have no idea where I am at.

3. bet 4k this was my initial thought but was concerned if I get one caller on the early side with a draw or mid PP, it may invite others in with longer shot gutters bc u know the guys with Ax would stick around. then what. free cards.

4. Pot size. this was really what I thought would be the best option to take out the draws. However, with this I was thinking I would be pot committed. If I get one/two callers and the turn is a blank. then what.

5. SHOVE- well bc of the last thought of being pot committed, At least this would save me the anguish of getting sucked out bc of the numerous possible ranges of hands that could be out there.

The Decision- SHOVE. Yes, after the SB checked I shoved. after all that thought I shipped it.

Well, after 3 folds, the big stack sits there and thinks for a bit. CALLS. everyone else folds.

I actually thought I was good bc he had played so many Ax the whole day that he would either have the A with a 2, 4, 7 but really thinking he was on a draw. w A3 or A5 or the big concern of 5/6.

But instead, he puts the dagger in me when he flips 44 for the set.
turn 8, river J

I'm out.

I actually heard some one mumble when I walked away that they had 5/6 and woulda had the straight.

So, What does everyone think now. I know many of you will think I am an idiot but oh well. live and learn! I still think I should shove but also think that a check and a flat might have been the best option but that still would have left me open to so much.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. and sorry for the long winded answer but feel details are important.

Always remember: "20/20" is the only hand you don't get dealt at the table.

In a 9 way pot and even on this dry board, KK is already behind and drawing to two outs around two-thirds of the time.

Lucothefish said:

Nobody has mentioned how your equity diminishes in multi way pots and nobody has discussed reverse implied odds.

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RIO doesnt apply with 2.2x SPR's I think bet/gii barring redic action (more than 2 people jamming)

Lucothefish said:

In a 9 way pot and even on this dry board, KK is already behind and drawing to two outs around two-thirds of the time.

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no its not, each player has 9 combos of sets, but each player also has Ax 22-JJ/QQ and all suited and unsuited broadways. people have sets here way less than you think

Think you never can play optimal postflop 9way, because this is rarely going to happen.

Think this also never happened to me before.

duggs said:

no its not, each player has 9 combos of sets, but each player also has Ax 22-JJ/QQ and all suited and unsuited broadways. people have sets here way less than you think

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Ok I pulled that figure from memory and looking from preflop to river it holds true, but having run some crude numbers through excel it's more like ~31% chance of someone having flopped 2pair or a set on this flop, and the real % will be lower because the first 5 callers should have non-random hands that often miss this board. The last three overcallers are getting odds to call with almost ATC.

FWIW I got 31% from assuming two of the callers had a pair and they weren't blocking each other. Given preflop action I think assuming two other pocket pairs isn't unreasonable but it could also be one (~19% chance hero is beat), or even three (~38%). Hero holding KK very slightly increases the odds of someone else holding a pair btw.

duggs said:

...I think bet/gii barring redic action (more than 2 people jamming)

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Basically this.

Read people comments... and proably is a bad play... But I would Shove all-in..
I dont like the half the pot bet becuase that is half your stack. someone pushes all-in... what are you going to do Fold with 8,000-9000 left to your stack.. I think you are ahead here unless someone flopped a set... But you cant be timid because and weak bets you are inviting calls with people drawing.. Especially if the next person that acts calls... they will have more than enough for any good draw most likely.
the other thing is check/fold.. that is the other possibility.. so it is either all-in or check/fold.
also what tells me I am proably ahead here. by your description on how the the players are at thistable they seem to be tight. so thinking it not all but most of the miss this board totally.. maybe 56s..
this is a tight spot for how many callers you had. I would have been shocked too

i would like to overbet this pot,just 1.25 pot size bet!-- throwing 8K for value
hopefully give AX an very bad odds to call!
if turn is very safe, depends on your reads, showdown river for all in turns.

you dont have to half pot it guys. you are allowed to bet 1/3 or 1/4 pot if you want too

alchemistkid said:

My first post! Hopefully descriptive enough.
$230 DS(20k) live tourney $20k gtd 200 players left
5th level 25/100/200
Been at table for a bit. lots of limping, check/folding, and only top pairs winning pots that have really only been checked down. Pre-flop raisers (3x or 4x) get 1 caller if any.

hero: UTG 17,500 stack, UTG+1: 12,500, UTG +2: 22,500 (very good player, have plaed a bit with hime before), MP1: 9k, MP2: 40k (big Stack) lots of ace/x hands, in lots of pots, HJ: 25k nitty,CU: 15k limpitous (had just double up on a hand I will post later, BTN: 20k new to table, SB: 10k aggressive when he's got it, BB: 7k (absent)
(stacks besides mine are as close to approxiate as possible)

Hero: First decent hand pre-flop
Raise to 800 UTG
UTG+1: call ,UTG+2: call, MP1:call, MP2:call, HJ:call, CU:call, BTN: call, SB:call BB:fold(absent)
POT: 7,600
FLOP:
SB: check
HERO: 16,700 left
WHAT NOW?
Also any critisism, advice, etc!
THX

Click to expand...

This is a really tough situation. I hate getting big hands like this in early position. Almost makes you think that open shoving is the best play. People are bad enough to call with Ak, AQ, med pairs, all kinds of crap. But I think you played it well. Come in for a raise and see what happens. Now what?

Well, you play you're hand face up. Don't get tricky, just bet out like you have JJ-AA. I usually advocate a 1/2 pot to 3/4 pot bet but in this case I think something smaller is in order. Kick the tires with a 1/4 or 1/3 pot bet and again, see what happens. You've got great relative position and you'll get to see how the whole table reacts to you're CBET. If you're raised and re-raised then let it go. Vs one caller I'd take it to value town. vs a call and a raise I shove it in and hope to get called by an overpair. Yeah, i know this doesn't eliminate the possibility of a set but I think it increases the chance of getting called by an overplayed pair. I really don't think Aces are a concern.

What if you get a string of callers? Well, that means you're up against some draws (not many likely ones from the look of that board) and some overpairs, maybe even something like Axs with a pair, but you're probably still ahead. If an Ace comes on the turn check and wait. The thing about MWP's is that they tend to keep everyone honest. If someone reps an Ace they probably have an Ace.

Depending on how things play out I probably call a single bet on the river.

Now i'll go back and read the outcome.

Ugh, the set of course. I'm out too.

As others has pointed out board couldnt be dryer.
Still a tough spot as people might show up with sets or even 2-pair.

Reminds me of when I first tried poker online at yahoo like 10 years ago.
12-player limit tables and everyone would call ATC pre. And keep calling with any piece of the flop.
AA was a pretty pointless hand in those games, and KK even worse.

I know the prodigal is 3 to 4 times blinds for raise but when stacks are this high 800 seems like a drop in the bucket. I think first mistake was not betting more pre especially utg to get less callers. Im no expert but I believe thats what I would have done.

Cant wait for the tongue lashing I'm about to get on this!

I'd bet half the pot and if someone were to re-raise then you can be pretty sure they have a set. Tough hand though. I, personally, would've raised a little higher pre-flop but with him being the BB he more than likely would've called anyway and the result would've been the same.