KK In a very ugly spot preflop, on the FT bubble of 1k?

naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Ok so there's 10 players left (9 make FT). Game Is a $5.50 1k "Feather-Weight" I'm sitting over all middle of the pack (5th-6th), Somewhere In that area.

When this hand comes up. Now really, It goes, shove from SS (Ok np), flat from massive stack (He/She were loose), so It's ok. Yet 3bet A.I from another stack that has about 100k and I only had to start with 170k, lol (I love this game). I look back and still see Kings, but wtf are they all going nuts with? I mean the 3bet A.I from the BTN has to know that the big stack Is calling (Correct)? So what could he have? What do you do here?

Do you think bigger picture and fold KK?
Do you think they may have "AA"? And make a crying fold?
Do you think about payout structure and how the money Is top heavy and make the fold because of that reason?
Do you think about all the other short stacks that will benefit (Assuming you 4bet It In) and end up losing and than are out, and they ladder up?


party poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t/t Blinds - 5 players - View hand 2879984
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): t172842

BB: t138973 1 BBs - VPIP: 25, PFR: 23, 3B: 3, AF: 7.0, Hands: 157
UTG: t48430 1 BBs - VPIP: 25, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 4
CO: t831722 1 BBs - VPIP: 100, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 4
BTN: t95795 1 BBs - VPIP: 50, PFR: 33, 3B: 67, AF: 0.0, Hands: 6

Pre Flop: (t0) Hero is SB with K :spade: K :diamond:
UTG raises to t47630, CO calls t47630, BTN raises to t94995, Hero?

Blinds btw were

4k/8k/with 800 antes
 
ConDeck

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How top heavy were payouts? Average stack? How weak was the remaining feld? Do you have any other information on the CO? BTN? I'm struggling to find a fold here, pretty sure this is a still a 4b shove... Stack sizes are shallow so ranges are easily wide enough to still be way ahead.

I'm just contemplate the possibility of flatting, obviously calling off if CO reshoves, but then shoving any good flop for us. We can fold to aggression on Ax boards by CO and we still have 10bb remaining. But I need to think more on this and on my phone eating lunch ATM.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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How top heavy were payouts? Average stack? How weak was the remaining feld? Do you have any other information on the CO? BTN? I'm struggling to find a fold here, pretty sure this is a still a 4b shove... Stack sizes are shallow so ranges are easily wide enough to still be way ahead.

I'm just contemplate the possibility of flatting, obviously calling off if CO reshoves, but then shoving any good flop for us. We can fold to aggression on Ax boards by CO and we still have 10bb remaining. But I need to think more on this and on my phone eating lunch ATM.

I don't recall the exact payouts, but I know top was $235 and that 10th was $22, so there was a massive difference between 10th and 1st. As for other Info I can give on BTN and C.O (Really nothing) because I just got moved to that table, I only had 4 hands on them and haven't played vs them entire game. So In other (Nada:) ). I know the player In the BB was ranked as a "Shark" on "Shark-Scope" and has over $7k+In winnings, ROI was 144%, but he still Isn't even In the hand. That Is honestly the most Info I have for this hand.

I kinda figured that the C.O wasn't folding ever, because he/she was just flatting everything, and with the SS A.I, and them flatting (I mean It would've been easier to GII vs them), but than when BTN does that reshove, I'm like "WTF"? I have KK and there's only 1 possible hand that beats me, and I also have to know that the C.O Is still gonna call, regardless of action. So I'm wondering about what the correct ICM move here Is?

Do I want to preserve my stack for another situation on the FT? I mean It's obvious that C.O Isn't going anywhere at all, and that there's a decent shot that 1 player will be knocked out this hand, not to mention, the BB still Is left to act In the hand? Also other SS In the game on the other tables are all fighting for there lives.

Yet, It's Kings. I honestly don't know. I mean normally early on, NP to GII. Middle stages depending on player, still no Issue. Late Stages, lets go. I've never encountered a situation like this, that I had to actually think about folding KK pre because of payouts and the remaining players In the field. Field wise over all, was weak, other than that one player In the BB (Who was a Shark), the rest were "mongs" TBH:)
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Here is the whole hand, as I noticed my hand wasn't actually showing.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 5.5 Tournament, 4,000/8,000 Blinds 800 Ante (5 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

BB (t138,973)
Hero (SB) (t172,842)
Button (t95,795)
UTG (t48,430)
MP (t831,722)

Hero's M: 10.80

Preflop: Hero is SB with K
spade.gif
, K
diamond.gif

UTG raises to t47,630 (All-In), MP calls t47,630, Button raises to t94,995 (All-In), Hero?
 
radek

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ICM shows (not including prices and places).

BU 1.8%, JJ+
SB 0.9%, KK+ (Hero)
BB 1.4%, QQ+
 
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trent32la

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This spot isn't even close to a fold, although its a pretty gross situation to be in with a strong hand. I reckon you rejammed and ran into AA, otherwise this hand wouldn't have been posted, ICM isn't super relevant here either unless it's a marginal spot.

You're facing a 6 big blind shove from UTG 5-handed and a rejam from a 12bb stack, neither of these players have ranges polarized to AA+.

I'd give the UTG shove range something like, 22+ Ax+, K5s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+, J9s+, JTo+, T9s, 98s.

I'd give the CO overcall range something like, 88+, AJ+, he also has a big stack so he can flat the shove wider.

To be safe, I'd think the Button overjams JJ+ AK+ or some sort here.

Yeah, it's a pretty ****ed up spot now that I realize, but you cannot muck kings here. I'd probably dive here with QQ+.
 
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T

trent32la

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After doing some equilab-ing, you have ~43% equity in this spot against all the ranges listed above, although this also takes into account the CO calls with his entire range when you reshove, which he may or may not.
 
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WiZZiM

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It's not a spot you dream to be in by any means, but realistically there's only a little bit of ICM pressure here, nothing to really worry too much about yet. Moving it in with KK here QQ is much closer, i'd be mucking AK JJ here for sure.
 
proud2Bwhack

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the simple fact

Hate to say it but Daniel Negreauno (sp?) said he would never ever fold KK preflop under any circumstances. if that isn't good enough...

remember this, the real money is in 1-2 place, to get there you need CHIPS, with that many chips on the table and KK you need to go after it right there. forget 5-6th place.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Insta reshove here.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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remember this, the real money is in 1-2 place, to get there you need CHIPS, with that many chips on the table and KK you need to go after it right there. forget 5-6th place.

Very solid point.
 
naruto_miu

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Hate to say it but Daniel Negreauno (sp?) said he would never ever fold KK preflop under any circumstances. if that isn't good enough...

remember this, the real money is in 1-2 place, to get there you need CHIPS, with that many chips on the table and KK you need to go after it right there. forget 5-6th place.

That's what kept going through my mind. If I lay this down, right here and now. I'll still have 160+k stack, and also that someone (maybe even 2 players) might be out, and we'll get to the FT. I know that I can kosher along the middle of the pack very easily (depending on position of certain players at the table). Yet you do make a solid point, and I was also thinking of going for It, right there and than and going Into FT with a hefty amount of chips to really go for the #1 spot
 
Aceplayer55

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Fold
Two players could be out on this one hand.
If you throw away small payouts in search of the big one, you will not be able to pay your entry fees.
Besides, if I make the final table with a decent stack, I have a good shot at taking it all.
 
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erakdues

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In tournament play, there are times when it's correct to fold ace. It sounds like you've read, so you already saw his example in play.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Fold
Two players could be out on this one hand.
If you throw away small payouts in search of the big one, you will not be able to pay your entry fees.
Besides, if I make the final table with a decent stack, I have a good shot at taking it all.


I don't understand what you meant In the highlighted part, could you please, re-write so I can understand what you're saying. Was It that you're telling me to fold to ladder up so I can pay for my entry fee+get some In return, or are you telling me not to worry about the small payouts and aim for the higher finishes by GII, In this certain spot?
 
Aceplayer55

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I don't understand what you meant In the highlighted part, could you please, re-write so I can understand what you're saying. Was It that you're telling me to fold to ladder up so I can pay for my entry fee+get some In return, or are you telling me not to worry about the small payouts and aim for the higher finishes by GII, In this certain spot?

sorry
I meant that you need to refresh your bankroll with small wins. If you keep shooting for big wins, it ups your variance because you win less often.

So I am saying fold to insure a small win. Its not a hand where you have already invested a large part of your stack. You may still win it all.
 
Ducky7

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Anyone who doesn't think this is a dream spot and an insta re-jam should stop playing for real money. This is the spot you dream about

You crush all ranges
 
Ducky7

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The way to boost your bankroll is with big ones, tournaments are swingy you dont run deep often and when you do you should try win, dear God you do not play tournaments to min cash and preserve buy ins
 
TimovieMan

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UTG shoving with essentially 6 BB actually has a pretty wide range. Any pocket pair, most Ax hands, all broadways, etc.
BTN overshoving is narrower, maybe top 6%? 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+?

MP can be superwide, because he can afford it.

I still like our hand very much. Insta-overshove.


If there's ever a spot that would give us a big chance to build a huge stack and take top spot in the tournament, this is it!


sorry
I meant that you need to refresh your bankroll with small wins. If you keep shooting for big wins, it ups your variance because you win less often.

So I am saying fold to insure a small win. Its not a hand where you have already invested a large part of your stack. You may still win it all.
Small wins are meaningless. It's the big ones you're after. You WANT to up your variance. You win less often, but when you do, you win big.

One win > 50 min-cashes.

If you're playing to min-cash, why are you playing tournaments?
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Anyone who doesn't think this is a dream spot and an insta re-jam should stop playing for real money. This is the spot you dream about

You crush all ranges

I realize that the this certain situation Is somewhat laughable. Yet my thoughts were this.

A) If I choose to fold, I guarantee myself a seat at the FT with a somewhat middle-Ish stack size. Which In all honesty Is workable.

B) I'm not worried about UTG/Nor was I ever worried about C.O. It was the BTN that was the Issue because, I mean, how can he/she 3bet reshove (Knowing full well), that C.O was calling (since that player was a station). So what range of hands could possibly do this? I couldn't really think of any other hand besides QQ/KK/AA/AK and that was really about all.

Lets look at It from a different situation. Forget this little buy-in and assume this same situation happened on the FT of a "Major Sunday Game", Is this still a situation that you would gladly call of?
 
TimovieMan

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Lets look at It from a different situation. Forget this little buy-in and assume this same situation happened on the FT of a "Major Sunday Game", Is this still a situation that you would gladly call of?
Absolutely!

No guts, no glory! :cool:
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Absolutely!

No guts, no glory! :cool:

You're a beast:D , I swear to you, If this was the "Sunday Million" or any "Sunday Major" and I was put Into the same situation, I will fold 100% of the time, assuming the BTN Isn't nutz:eek:
 
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