Is keeping short-stack alive to bully middle stacks part of collusion?

PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
Total posts
1,321
Awards
1
Chips
48
Here's what happened. This was a 9-player sng satellite where top 2 gets entry and 3rd gets buy-in back.

We were down to 3 players. Villain had 7k. I had 5k. short-stack who was also sitting out had less than 2k.

From this structure and environment, ideally, best thing to do is keep our mouths shut, blind out the sitout and we both gets entries.

Villain sat right of me while short-stack sat left of me.

Villain starts playing like a moron, shoving every hand. I had pocket Jacks from big blind. He shoved all-in against me from small blind. Ideally, I don't have to play my cards, just fold my way to win. But since he was being a pos, I decided to call off my whole chipstack with Jacks. He rolls over 97o. I won that huge pot, putting me in dominating position of 10k. Idiot was down to 2k or so, which puts him at level of sitout's stack. To give him a taste of his own medicine, I started shoving against his blinds. I don't know what he was writing on the chatbox, I tried to ignore. Idiot who was shoving on my blinds before all of a sudden folds to my blinds. I intentionally folded to sitout's big blind to keep him alive so I can toy with the villain and show how stupid he is.

In the end, my KQ suited knocked his A6o, sitout and I won the entries while he got 3rd. He was writing all sorts of noise in French that i didn't understand and then writes something in English like "report.............collusion".

I was laughing so hard, then asked few people if this is part of collusion. Some say that it's part of big stack strategy and no way involved in collusion since i didn't even know any of them. Some asked me what i folded and shoved with. I folded to sitout's blind while holding A6o. I shoved against villain's blind with 26o and worse. They say that itself can be part of collusion.

Regardless of if it's collusion or not, I've learned that cards are irrelevant in tournaments when you can use chipstack to control the table. I've learned that sometimes, keeping small stacks barely active can be beneficial to bully around middle stacks. I'm assuming that these plays are very standard in DoN. Can be quite funny to manipulate the environment with solely chipstack itself where you don't even need cards to get people to fold. I'm finding this somewhat similar to chess, where I put certain pieces on check so I can play strategically on taking down other pieces.
 
tomh7795

tomh7795

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Total posts
545
Chips
0
That call with jacks was awful. Does it matter if he has more chips? Just let the ss get blinded out. You don't want to risk busting just for more chips which I won't be worth any more. Doesn't matter if he pushes everyhand.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
How can you collude with a player who's sitting out anyway?
 
Snowmobiler

Snowmobiler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Total posts
2,644
Chips
0
How can you collude with a player who's sitting out anyway?


If he is folding to a sitter with his strong hands and shoving against the other player with any 2,It seems to me he is breaking the rules by playing favorably towards 1 player while targeting the other player.The collusion would only be on his play and the sitter would have no responsibility in this imo.

Play to win and dont get caught up in these type headgames!

What if the sitter that you are keeping in all of the sudden sits back in and busts you out,I think you would feel dumb letting him stay in the game on purpose and would cost you bankroll.


Snow :cool:
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
If he is folding to a sitter with his strong hands and shoving against the other player with any 2,It seems to me he is breaking the rules by playing favorably towards 1 player while targeting the other player.The collusion would only be on his play and the sitter would have no responsibility in this imo.

Play to win and dont get caught up in these type headgames!

What if the sitter that you are keeping in all of the sudden sits back in and busts you out,I think you would feel dumb letting him stay in the game on purpose and would cost you bankroll.


Snow :cool:

There is no collusion if only one player knows about it!

LMAO
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
If he is folding to a sitter with his strong hands and shoving against the other player with any 2,It seems to me he is breaking the rules by playing favorably towards 1 player while targeting the other player.The collusion would only be on his play and the sitter would have no responsibility in this imo.

Surely that's called 'tactics' not collusion??? :party:
 
Snowmobiler

Snowmobiler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Total posts
2,644
Chips
0
Surely that's called 'tactics' not collusion??? :party:



What is the "tactic" when 2 people qualify in a satelite with 3 players left and the big stack tries to let the sitter win instead of the person playing?

He is gaining nothing by playing this way and is acting in collusive manner!



Snow :cool:
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
What is the "tactic" when 2 people qualify in a satelite with 3 players left and the big stack tries to let the sitter win instead of the person playing?

He is gaining nothing by playing this way and is acting in collusive manner!



Snow :cool:

He's getting in your head and the best thing to do is sit out if you have a lot more than the other person sitting out. (but keep an eye on the table in case the other sitter comes back)
 
Mortis

Mortis

The Saurus
Loyaler
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Total posts
12,022
Awards
6
US
Chips
684
If he is folding to a sitter with his strong hands and shoving against the other player with any 2,It seems to me he is breaking the rules by playing favorably towards 1 player while targeting the other player.The collusion would only be on his play and the sitter would have no responsibility in this imo.

Snow :cool:

People do that against others they don't like or have sucked out on them before in other games.. it's not against the rules to shove against someone they don't like for what ever reason.

There is no collusion if only one player knows about it!

This. All the OP did was call with a winning hand and then do what the other guy was doing to him because the guy was getting on his nerves.

Collusion is an agreement, usually secretive, which occurs between two or more persons to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage
 
Mortis

Mortis

The Saurus
Loyaler
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Total posts
12,022
Awards
6
US
Chips
684
What is the "tactic" when 2 people qualify in a satelite with 3 players left and the big stack tries to let the sitter win instead of the person playing?

He is gaining nothing by playing this way and is acting in collusive manner!



Snow :cool:

I agree with you that he is not gaining anything out of it, and I would have just folded personally each time... but it's still not colluding. Colluding has to be with 2 or more people.
 
Snowmobiler

Snowmobiler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Total posts
2,644
Chips
0
There is no collusion if only one player knows about it!

LMAO


He is breaking the rules playing favorably towards 1 player while targeting another player with no advantage to himself.You have to remember that 2 people win the seat (same prize).If he was playing for a 1st place prize and keeping sitter in to try and gain an advantage against the player,his play would be fine.Im not argueing the definition of collusion here,but his play is against the rules imo.

Insert "cheating" instead of "collusion' and maybe my point becomes more clear!



Snow :cool:
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
Please show me anywhere in the rules where it says that you may choose to use your own tactics, misguided as they are.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
You soft-played the sitter, which is against the rules.
 
Mortis

Mortis

The Saurus
Loyaler
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Total posts
12,022
Awards
6
US
Chips
684
You soft-played the sitter, which is against the rules.

Now that... he may have done.

The calling and shoving wasn't what did it... but folding to the sit outter could have gotten the OP in trouble for soft playing.
 
Snowmobiler

Snowmobiler

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Total posts
2,644
Chips
0
Please show me anywhere in the rules where it says that you may choose to use your own tactics, misguided as they are.


pokerstars 5.8 of there terms of Service that we all agree with when we sign up.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

5.8 discusses Chip dumping when any user intentionally loses a hand in order to deliberately transfer his chips to another user,player may be permanantly banned.



I think this rule is very clear in this spot.


Snow :cool:
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
Pokerstars 5.8 of there terms of Service that we all agree with when we sign up.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

5.8 discusses Chip dumping when any user intentionally loses a hand in order to deliberately transfer his chips to another user,player may be permanantly banned.



I think this rule is very clear in this spot.


Snow :cool:

Soft playing, maybe, but definitely not chip dumping - I wouldn't class this type of soft playing under collusion though :)

Regardless, you were right when you said it was cheating, so my apologies. Looks like we both got there in different ways and it took me a bit longer :bird:
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
Now that... he may have done.

The calling and shoving wasn't what did it... but folding to the sit outter could have gotten the OP in trouble for soft playing.

So now it's the player's responsibility to know who's sitting out?

He can fold anytime he wants.

They don't know eachother so he wasn't softplaying anyone.

If he clicked sit out next hand he would fold to the sitter anyway.

It's not cheating or collusion. It's nothing.

It's not in the rules anywhere that you have to know who's sitting out AND you cannot fold a hand to them.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Chips
0
oh god there is so much wrong with this thread i honestly don't know where to start (so i just won't bother).
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
So now it's the player's responsibility to know who's sitting out?

He can fold anytime he wants.

They don't know eachother so he wasn't softplaying anyone.

If he clicked sit out next hand he would fold to the sitter anyway.

It's not cheating or collusion. It's nothing.

It's not in the rules anywhere that you have to know who's sitting out AND you cannot fold a hand to them.


No it is not a players responsibility to know if another player is sitting out, but the fact of the matter is the op DID know. Because op did know, it is soft-playing and a form of cheating.
 
S

suraj128

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Total posts
80
Chips
0
I say good for you, the guy was trying to be a idiot pushing you around when all he had to do was go after the small stack. It wasnt the smartest move on your part risking getting knocked out but in this case I am sure you taight him a nice lesson he wont forget.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
Total posts
1,321
Awards
1
Chips
48
Wow, I didn't know I was "soft-playing". I'm convinced that I broke the rules. I wish I had known about this before folding to sitout's big blind. My real reason for acting like a jackass was to target the idiot who shoved with 97o against my blind because I was offended. I wanted to show him who's the boss and he's under my mercy. It was no intention to help out the sitout. My reason for folding to sitout was "aaw, i don't wanna end the fun. i wanna keep him alive so i can punk this idiot around all day and show him why he shouldn't have messed with me or play stupid".

In the end, all of this was plain stupid. I knew that I can fold my way to win as I mentioned in OP. I got angry and emotional, which is -EV in poker. I play 10 tables at a time and I won 6 of them, which made me profit more than enough. So I figured that I knew that the worst that can happen in this satellite was break-even. Like, I knew what the consequences were as I was willing to take it in an exchange of busting this idiot. That's how angry I was at this moron. I would also like to retract my last paragraph. That strategy is based on result-oriented game. Only reason why that worked is because sitout was folding 100%, which is 100% fold equity regardless of what I do but in real game, there's no 100% fold equity.
 
MrHopeful

MrHopeful

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Total posts
31
Chips
0
'co-operation' play is no problem and will be seen a lot in DU games.

I dont like your emotional response to start targeting the villian when you had the CL ?

Just sit back if its only a few orbits till 'sit out' blinds out and watch to make sure that the 'sit out' doesnt get a run of luck and hang in and then logs back in. Do not get involved in personal battles ...you would feel sick if he had of woke up with a few hands and knocked you out?
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

Put the win in penguin
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Total posts
7,594
Awards
1
Chips
3
In a typical payout game, with first place getting the lions share, you can use the short stack to bully other players.

Harrington on Hold'Em Volume II: The Endgame
Page 298-301, Example 9
If you haven't read this book yet, buy it. It practically pays for itself.

Summary: You are the big stack (2.5x anybody at the table), there are 4 players left, and one has a been nursing a tiny stack and will be out soon which will move everybody up significantly in pay. You get involved with a middle stack and make what would normally be a dangerous bluff, but because the middle stack doesn't want to go out before the tiny stack he folds.

This is a good situation, so I would not be eager to knock out the has-no-hope-stack, and would expect myself to fold a wide range of hands in my SB to his BB.

Your situation is completely different though. You are not playing for a highly inflated first place payout. In your case, especially with the sit-out, you want the safest route to the win, which is eliminating the sitting shorty. If the other guy is going to keeps throwing chips, feh. He isn't making the unofficial cooperation play with you but getting mad and fighting back is far more risky, making it a route to take.
 
mdnmdn

mdnmdn

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Total posts
315
Awards
1
Chips
0
Bottom line is that it is up to the managment of whatever site you play at. I have heard of all kinds of different reasons for a player to be banned, some cheating and some not. What we have to remeber, imo, is that its not up to us. Its up to the management of the site and if you dont like it dont play. There is always a chance to be banned.
 
Organize a Home Poker Game
Top