Keep coming 2nd. Heads-Up help?

JohnBoyWWFC

JohnBoyWWFC

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I'm getting a tad frustrated with continuously being bested when I get HU in an MTT. Just the other night, I made two final tables, cruised through to heads-up and then ballsed it all up at the point of the biggest pay jump.

I try to play aggressive, I tend to be raising almost every button and playing as little OOP as possible, but I still seem to have little success. The other night, the two HU games were as different as could be, one was a turbo, the other was a deepstacked game and we both had around 100bbs when we got HU, but neither seemed to work for me and it's a problem that seems to permeate my tournament "career".

Any advice generally for HU play?
 
pcgnome

pcgnome

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I've always had the same problem . The only thing I can think of is the book that Colin Moshman has written on heads-up play. Which reminds me that I need to get it now that I'm working again.:)
 
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BlueNowhere

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Adjust to effective stack sizes. lets say you have have 2000 chips and opponent has 1000 chips (just because they are easy numbers) with blinds 25/50 remember to play as if you have 20BB, not 40BB, I see alot of people make that mistake.

Raising most buttons is fine, if opponent calls or 3-bets too much drop some of the hands from the bottom of your range. Keep aggresion up OOP, people play too passive OOP. You can limp in with middling hands although I'm not a fan of it. Play some $1.50 HU just to get used to the style. Adjust to opponenets tendancies quickly.
 
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baudib1

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It's probably just variance. Suggestions itt are good.

If villain plays straightforward/passive OOP and lets you steal small pots, limp a reasonably polarized range (some suited connectors, some Ax and occasional monster - not AK though).
 
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Aldito

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Completely depends on stack sizes. I find my HU game is fairly weak when I have over 50bbs or so, but I think my short stack play is good.

HU play is very opponant dependant.

In most cases you need to be raising very wide(minraise is generally fine), and once effective stacks are low enough, just start open shoving.

You might be folding too wide against aggresive villains.

Check out HU nash equilibrium:

http://justplaypoker.net/2009/07/nash-equilibrium-sage/
 
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only_bridge

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So the sample seize is 2?

I'd call the variance card on this one.
 
JohnBoyWWFC

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Not really, it's just that hitting getting heads-up twice in one night and bottling them both kind of highlighted the issue for me. As I say, it's something that's been an issue for a little while but those two are obviously fresh in my mind. Also, I'd say it's much harder to get a solid sample size here since heads-up spots in MTTs don't come around all that often tbh.

That Nash equilibrium page definitely looks useful.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Just a note on Nash. Calling range is only 0ev against someone using Nash. Alot of the time it's -ev. Also if you're using it for shoving you have to use it for your entire range. If you have 10BB and you are using Nash don't min raise with aces (If you do I think you're supposed to switch to Chubukov). Also shoving range is far from optimal. It's unexploitable but you're also sacrificing your chance to exploit the villian. Since most people in MTT play like retards HU thats an edge I don't want to sacrifice. I start just open shoving around 8BB or so.
 
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Aldito

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Just a note on Nash. Calling range is only 0ev against someone using Nash. Alot of the time it's -ev. Also if you're using it for shoving you have to use it for your entire range. If you have 10BB and you are using Nash don't min raise with aces (If you do I think you're supposed to switch to Chubukov). Also shoving range is far from optimal. It's unexploitable but you're also sacrificing your chance to exploit the villian. Since most people in MTT play like retards HU thats an edge I don't want to sacrifice. I start just open shoving around 8BB or so.

I agree that the ranges are too wide, and you shouldn't be open shoving many hands with 20bbs, but I think you should definitely be shoving before you get to 8bbs.
 
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BlueNowhere

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I agree that the ranges are too wide, and you shouldn't be open shoving many hands with 20bbs, but I think you should definitely be shoving before you get to 8bbs.

It's opponenet dependant, in a HU match I shove before 8BB, if I reach HU in a MTT and I'm the big stack and they have 9BB it's fine to min-raise.
 
Arjonius

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sample size of 2 tournaments is waaaaay too small to draw any conclusions. What's your HU win % over say the last 100 times? There's still fair room for variance in that number, but if you're well under 50%, you at least have a decent indication your HU play needs to improve.

Yes, it does take a while to get a sample that size. But if you're even moderately serious about poker, you should be tracking your results systematically enough to go back and see. All you have to do is compare how many times you came first vs how many you came second.
 
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Open the button about 80% of the time limping is fine, if you have solid postflop skills. Give your opponent credit for his first few 3 bets if he's making them. um, also cbet the flop about 70% of the time your opponent will miss and will mostly fold. However, if he plays back at you reassess your next action. Cbets are also better done as semi bluffs, this makes it easier because your hand still has drawing potential.
 
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baudib1

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limping on the button is terrible if you do it all the time.
 
ONaRoll

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I remember losing 10 in a row HU and it became a real head f*ck and rather than playing my usual game kept trying dif ways which was prob why bad run went on so long, but getting HU 10 times in 2 weeks was great going and was my best run of money ever .I came thru it and it made me a better HU player by far .
 
duggs

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I reckon you should post some problem hands from the two tourneys or just hypotheticals, alot of HU is all about previous action (adjustments), aggression and confidence.
other than that if you are heads up 100bb deep i suggest

3bet light first time without previous dynamics (your first 3bet doesn't have any previous 3betting tendencies heads up so they are likely to play back far tighter than usual, so 3betting air first is preferable to wasting a stronger hand with such tight 4bet or calling ranges)

3bet often and light (opponent dependent, if they call 3bets to wide remove air and widen your value range unless they are playing fit or fold postflop)

depending on the buyin you can range opponents quite predictably,
can expect good players to bluff often and get to showdown with med strength hands, weaker players will often be too tight pre or flop and overvalue A high

everything is meta, most players overreact to previous hands, especially when they are involved in it, which is every hand in heads up.

balance ranges by being aggressive with air

note player tendencies

take lines that are similar to previous action.

with shallower stacks there will be more variance and more likely to be all in pre so dont really worry bout it.

hope that helps
 
derekdrawsdead

derekdrawsdead

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Depends on a variety of factors.

If other player is very passive, and doesn't like to bet; I will play a number of different hands. Limping in whenever I don't have a premium hand to see a flop, and raising preflop with anything strong. If he/she calls the preflop raise, you know they are holding a good hand. Get ready for the flop. No matter what the flop is, bet 1/2 pot. odds are, if they didn't get top pair.. they will fold.

An aggressive player, can be a little dangerous. Sit back, play premium hands and look to trap as much as possible. You want to have the mindset of an aggressive player, but you want to show you are passive.
 
Tino11

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To overcome the HU problem [that many players have] I got a mate of mine and we played some HU SnG's and talked about some of the hands and what our thought patterns were, what we thought of each others lines and ranges etc etc etc. I also looked at a few inverse videos that were HU specific and they were a great help. The two combined moved my game forward a notch in HU situations.
Hope you find a solution that works for you.
 
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