Just a Cooler?

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ssbn743

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It’s early in a deep stack Saturday NL hold 'em event with 30K to start and 30 minute levels at my local casino. I missed the first couple of levels and started in level 3; the following hand occurred in level 7 with blinds at $400/$800/$100.

The game had been going well and I was right on track; I hadn’t yet really got any cards but had been playing well and making the most of situations. Then a player got moved to my table that I didn‘t know but immediately knew at the same time. He was an older man, about 60-65 years old, and had the largest stack at our table with about $75K. That’s a red flag to me immediately because I know he doesn’t have a clue. He is not a rock pre-flop, but after the flop he certainly is since he must have something to continue and is unable to bet on the come; yet the biggest thing I can pull out of my description for this player is that he is position ignorant.

I had about $55K and my opponent had about $75K.

From UTG he raises for the 3rd time in 5 hands to $3K; his previous raises were to $2,400. When he did this he exhibited several very standard tells. Not only was his bet sizing a little large for the $800 level –and larger than the amount he had previously wagered in the same level, he made a loud grunt as he threw the chips in the pot and literally threw the chips in with many of them sliding all the way across the table. He did all this while simultaneously fully extending all his fingers with special emphasis on his index finger.

Now we all should know what this means; he opened light!

I took AQ+ and through all those hands out of the window immediately. This leaves very small pocket pairs (22, 33, 44) and Kx, Qx, or Ax in his range in my opinion; really that’s a small range at this stage.

Everyone folds around to me on the button where I find :3d4: :4d4:

I’m not that far behind his range here and see an enormous opportunity developing should the flop hit my hand. With position, I flat call the $3K, both of the blinds fold and we go to the flop.

Pot: $8,100

Flop: :ac4: :2c4: :5c4:

Being first to act my opponent bets $6K. I think this guy is a total rock post flop and I am nearly sure that he has an ace here. Most of the time, I think I raise the flop in this situation, however, doing so doesn’t gain me much value since he will likely fold. I mulled it over for a few seconds and decided I wanted more value so I flat called with plans to extract value on the turn if no club comes.

Pot: $20,100

Turn: :9c4:

Shit! However, my opponent was immediately dejected, yet I watched his eyes bounce down to his chips and then back up again really quickly as if he liked that card. Could he have A9? I was nearly sure of it, maybe he already had two pair on the flop, but I was pretty sure by this point what he had and whatever it was I knew he had outs; maybe he had a set here too. What a golden situation – you know the kind that just doesn’t come around very often; my opponent dejectedly checks and I knew that he was also afraid of the flush.

How should I proceed?

There’s ~$20K in the pot and I still have ~$45K back. I move all-in, hoping to seem weak and like I don’t have the flush he thinks I have.

My opponent him-haws around for a while and finally calls.

He shows :ad4: :9s4:

Yahtzee!

Pot: $112,100

River :as4:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

That was a dagger right through my heart and the worst part is that this guy has absolutely no idea how lucky he just got. He’s over there giggling, “I got a full house” and I’m just thinking that if only he knew what was going on he may have a greater appreciation!

Now, obviously if I just raise the flop like I should have, I win a small pot, which is much better than losing a big pot and my entire stack. Yet, all that considered, I felt I had this guy nailed; and I was right!

Is this just a cooler?
 
Jacki Burkhart

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It is a cooler, however for tournament play there are several reasons why this didn't have to happen to your tournament life:

#1 if you think he opened light, why are you flat calling with a speculative hand? Yes, you are in position but I usually either re-steal with speculative hands or I play speculative hands to crack big hands, where the implied odds will actually be there. If you think he is weak and you do hit your hand, you'll just win a small pot. So I think you either re-raise or fold. I'd just fold here. The only reason re-raising is OK is because you're isolating a post flop rock in position so when he checks to you on the flop you can bet and win a majority of the time.

#2 Not raising the flop is a sin. Your hand is so strong right now and so vulnerable. Yes, he probably has the ace but why couldn't his kicker be a club? He also could just be playing the K clubs...I know you said he doesn't bet on the come, but there's a first time for everything....

#3 I think you played the turn well, you went with your read that he did not have a club, and that he was still strong enough to call a huge bet from behind. So I think that is fine, you got your stack in as a big favorite and got sucked out on. So it is a cooler in that sense

Interesting hand, though! thanks for sharing. I've made waaaay bigger blunders than this
 
Beanfacekilla

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Fold preflop.

You have 4 high.
 
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I like how you assessed the situation here, very nice thought process and read. It is a cooler on the river but as others will point out, preflop and post-flop play is were the mistakes were made.

pre-flop: re-raise if you think he is weak and just take it down, or if he flats, then you can be sure to bet the flop and win a half decent sized pot

post-flop: should just re-raise i think, he might have even called with with A9 and then your turn shove would seem even stronger.

You ended up having a nice read, but if he had any club i think he was calling. He called with the hand you wanted him to call and got lucky. Cooler.
 
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cpgd176

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I find vs "bad" players you have to do all your own value betting as they likely call you with worse and sometimes make a play and move all in over the top. Vs "good" players you have to really make good bets and give them odds to call lighter and sometimes bluff.
 
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twohaha

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Wow your reads were spot on!
34s seems a bit weak to call with, even though you have position. Maybe you could have 3 bet preflop based on your read? Though I certainly don't that good post flop skills.
Otherwise you played it amazing, sucks that he rivered the full house
 
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RamdeeBen

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Most of the time, I think I raise the flop in this situation, however, doing so doesn’t gain me much value since he will likely fold. I mulled it over for a few seconds and decided I wanted more value so I flat called with plans to extract value on the turn if no club comes.

Is this just a cooler?

Fold pre; regardless of how wide he is opening. Calling a 3x raise here isn't going to be profitable.

You say you was almost sure he had two pair, specifically A9. You want more value on the flop and turn but then turn decide to turn your hand into a bluff? This doesn't make much sense.

If you're targeting the hands you say, then you really need to go for thin value, shoving the turn doesn't accomplish that it folds out those hands and he snap calls and you value town yourself and you're drawing dead. Regardless of him calling in this spot and the exact hand he had is irrelevant.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Yet I’m sure if I had :9s4: :10s4: you’d have no problem with it!

That's because they're totally different hands, for they are higher cards; they play much better than 43s and there are more straight possibilities and your flush draws is likely going to be good in most cases. I woulden't fancy stacking of with a 4 high flush where as with 9T it can be justified more.
 
duggs

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preflop is spew, flop is spew, turn is spew and you are being extremely results orientated. you didnt know he had exactly A9 you got lucky to not run into a flush.

fold pre
raise flop
check back turn

I think you played every street poorly
 
Arjonius

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A cooler is when you have a very strong hand but someone else has a stronger one; e.g. when your KK runs into AA. When this guy hits a 4-outer on the river, it's a suckout.

Actually, it could be called a re-suck. The probability of you flopping a straight is smaller than his odds of hitting his 4-outer.
 
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ssbn743

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That's because they're totally different hands, for they are higher cards; they play much better than 43s and there are more straight possibilities and your flush draws is likely going to be good in most cases. I woulden't fancy stacking of with a 4 high flush where as with 9T it can be justified more.

Are you seriously going to justify you comment with the difference between a 10 high and 4 high flush? Really? Also, a 43 has only slightly fewer straight combos than 910 -that’s pretty weak as well.

If you don’t think I should have played it then that’s fine- but you need to work on the justification a little. If it’s ok to call with 10 high then it’s ok to call with 4 high – unless, of course, you’re going to try to justify that a pair of tens may be good when 4’s are not - which will push the EV in my favor, I'm sure.
 
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ssbn743

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preflop is spew, flop is spew, turn is spew and you are being extremely results orientated. you didnt know he had exactly A9 you got lucky to not run into a flush.

fold pre
raise flop
check back turn

I think you played every street poorly

Helpful as always Duggs – sometimes I wonder why you even bother replying; since no one is as good as you are!
 
duggs

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think about how redic wide your flatting range is if you are flatting 43s
 
duggs

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but the biggest reason for folding pre is that if you arent going to raise that flop, you arent going to make enough profitable value bets/bluffs to offset your equity disadvantage
 
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ssbn743

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I understand completely to justification for folding pre here – and I do nearly every time.

The only two reasons I play here are:

1. I have position on a post flop rock.
2. I knew he didn’t have the hand he was representing and thought that I could take advantage of a situation and another players’ mistake.

I still should fold pre because my whole plan revolves around connecting with the flop - I get it. But I didn’t fold pre here, for some reason I called and that’s that.

Once I call pre I should have raised the flop –again – I didn’t because I thought I could gain more value.

When the club hits the turn I have to give up – unless my opponent gives me all the information I need; which he did.

I didn’t turn anything into a bluff – I don’t get that one at all. I hoped my action would cause him to think I was bluffing – but I don’t understand how I turned this into a “bluff”.
 
duggs

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frequency of villains that 2xpot bluff shove in this spot is literally 0%. some villians would fold a 10/J high flush v you here, let alone call with 2 pair. hands that also improved on turn include any club, which you are dead against
 
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RamdeeBen

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Are you seriously going to justify you comment with the difference between a 10 high and 4 high flush? Really? Also, a 43 has only slightly fewer straight combos than 910 -that’s pretty weak as well.

If you don’t think I should have played it then that’s fine- but you need to work on the justification a little. If it’s ok to call with 10 high then it’s ok to call with 4 high – unless, of course, you’re going to try to justify that a pair of tens may be good when 4’s are not - which will push the EV in my favor, I'm sure.


I'm not justifying calling with T high either. Where did I say that? You quoted beanface saying he'd have no problem if you called with T9s, basically implying you seem to think if you can call with T9s you can also call with 43s! In a nutshell, you simply won't be good enough to play 43s profitably, even in position.

Also; I made a comment in regards to your actual question if you look.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I understand completely to justification for folding pre here – and I do nearly every time.

The only two reasons I play here are:

1. I have position on a post flop rock.
2. I knew he didn’t have the hand he was representing and thought that I could take advantage of a situation and another players’ mistake.

I still should fold pre because my whole plan revolves around connecting with the flop - I get it. But I didn’t fold pre here, for some reason I called and that’s that.

Once I call pre I should have raised the flop –again – I didn’t because I thought I could gain more value.

When the club hits the turn I have to give up – unless my opponent gives me all the information I need; which he did.

I didn’t turn anything into a bluff – I don’t get that one at all. I hoped my action would cause him to think I was bluffing – but I don’t understand how I turned this into a “bluff”.

So based on you x/c on the flop for more value as you said and thinking he has only two pairs; A9? why would you shove the turn and not raise the flop for a better turn bet size rather than a silly 2x pot turn bet? Which hands worse than yours do you expect to call here when you bet this big? Exactly hands that beat you so you're basically turning your hand into a bluff for those reasons. If you was seriously targeting A9 or other two pairs which you was so sure he had, shoving makes absolutely no sense as you minimize the chance of getting more value betting this big.

If you told me you was actually shoving as a bluff here, that would be miles better than shoving for what you think is value.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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Yet I’m sure if I had :9s4: :10s4: you’d have no problem with it!


This entire hand is an example of one bad decision after the other, compounded with a giant chip on your shoulder, and add a bunch of results oriented thinking to the mix.


Dude, I was just saying to fold preflop. Now reading your comments you are obviously not too happy with the advice I and others gave you.



3-4s calling a big preflop raise? Really? Then you stack off with it, and it's a cooler?


What is it like to live in never never land?


Not to mention you are rude to some of the others who commented as well....


I shared my opinion. So did others. If you don't like it, that's fine. Keep playing this way....
 
Beanfacekilla

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I understand completely to justification for folding pre here – and I do nearly every time.

The only two reasons I play here are:

1. I have position on a post flop rock.
2. I knew he didn’t have the hand he was representing and thought that I could take advantage of a situation and another players’ mistake.

I still should fold pre because my whole plan revolves around connecting with the flop - I get it. But I didn’t fold pre here, for some reason I called and that’s that.

Once I call pre I should have raised the flop –again – I didn’t because I thought I could gain more value.

When the club hits the turn I have to give up – unless my opponent gives me all the information I need; which he did.

I didn’t turn anything into a bluff – I don’t get that one at all. I hoped my action would cause him to think I was bluffing – but I don’t understand how I turned this into a “bluff”.


So he is a rock post flop? This is why you just flat call OTF with a straight? This is mistake #2...

Take advantage of another players mistake? Really? How are you doing this? By making a whole bunch of them yourself?
 
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redwards92

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I understand completely to justification for folding pre here – and I do nearly every time.

The only two reasons I play here are:

1. I have position on a post flop rock.
2. I knew he didn’t have the hand he was representing and thought that I could take advantage of a situation and another players’ mistake.

I still should fold pre because my whole plan revolves around connecting with the flop - I get it. But I didn’t fold pre here, for some reason I called and that’s that.

Once I call pre I should have raised the flop –again – I didn’t because I thought I could gain more value.

When the club hits the turn I have to give up – unless my opponent gives me all the information I need; which he did.

I didn’t turn anything into a bluff – I don’t get that one at all. I hoped my action would cause him to think I was bluffing – but I don’t understand how I turned this into a “bluff”.

So what was the point of this thread then?

Apparently you have it all figured out and are a phil hellmuth soul reader so just carry on! :albertein

edit

beans beat me to it. . .
 
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Beanfacekilla

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So what was the point of this thread then?

Apparently you have it all figured out and are a phil hellmuth soul reader so just carry on! :albertein

edit

beans beat me to it. . .


Ohhhhhh LOL at colored part.
 
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