I've noticed that some technically bad players do well assumingly due to aggression?

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cotta777

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both Playing mtt's and watching tutorials at levels such as $55.00 or $109.00 as an example, online I have come across players well maniacs who are technically bad players, but play consistantly doing reasonably well/ok
theirs not alot of positional sense and they will play hands easily dominated and blatently abusing their image and getting away with it, they are just betting alot of boards heavy,
occasionally they will get caught out but for the most part they are stacking nice and run deep (if they dont hang themselves)

I know some top players are capable of playing any two cards in a good spot and shoving air or betting large percentages of their stack in some situations
but this is different,
It's basically players who are logically not thinking anything other than this guy will fold if I bet big and alot of players are willing to let someone keep getting away with it rather than risk a stack that they can easilly add to in better spots.

Do you feel this relentless style can be profitable? or are they likely relitively knew players who have run really well built a bit of a bankroll up and are yet to run extremely bad?
its almost as if not knowing much about the game has done them a favour.

IMO I would say for a fact alot of players will go broke or decrease their win rates playing a stupid overly kind of thoughtless aggression factor...
 
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michael demichele

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buy a pot if you want to cook a chicken
 
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hrix

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Yes, I have noticed the same and I can't stand playing at the tables with those players. Especially when they have a big stack. They try to make profit even from hands like 6 9, or 2 8
 
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locha2013

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But i think in the middle of the game and against the last periode agressive style is a bad thing because you cant win when you loose every round chips. You must know that too many people play too many cards this you can turn to your favor. At the beginning you should throw with money when you have the cards for but thats at the end not soo easy.
 
jazzaxe

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Don't give them any cheap flops. Make them pay to stay.
 
Fahrenheit451

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I don't care if they are doing well, but I am very glad if I met someone like that at table. If I have a good hand I can win big pots against them.
Even with medium hand I can win 2 times out of 3 against them if I'm in position.
Of course - you can't expect to play every hand against them and win.
Bad thing is - they get cautious against me or they loose all BI and go.

But don't expect they will give you any money for being a nice guy - play aggressively if you think you have best hand !
 
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psychotie

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Their aggro style forces me to play only monsters, they usully behave like maniacs and the only way to handle this for me is to push as well , either to make them fold or finally reach a all in situation. If they call then im in the lead and can double up my stack, unless I m unlucky :)
 
Fahrenheit451

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Yes, I have noticed the same and I can't stand playing at the tables with those players. Especially when they have a big stack. They try to make profit even from hands like 6 9, or 2 8

They are throwing money at You !
You can only be annoyed if you don't play for money, but for principle :rolleyes:
 
a true nit

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i think if you try and make sense of the majority of play in the online world 2day you will drive yourself mad..take it with a grain of salt
 
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cotta777

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I don't care if they are doing well, but I am very glad if I met someone like that at table. If I have a good hand I can win big pots against them.
Even with medium hand I can win 2 times out of 3 against them if I'm in position.
Of course - you can't expect to play every hand against them and win.
Bad thing is - they get cautious against me or they loose all BI and go.

But don't expect they will give you any money for being a nice guy - play aggressively if you think you have best hand !


I'm fine with the aggression I'l look them up if they are capable of folding I dont like anyone trying to outplay me at my table
but when your wasting your time repping a board or trying to get them off a bad draw players are going to let them play like idiots overbetting and donk raising etc for the sake of it not being a best of spots if you can accumalate chips.

Its more a question of them doing well, I mean some of them are making a profit/winning players

*is this just a good run and they are yet to met bad variance are my thoughts on their game. unless they are having a bad night just not concerned having a night off getting a gambling fix or something., I dunno
 
dj11

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buy a pot if you want to cook a chicken

At first I thought this was a nonsense post from a newb going for post count.

Then I got it. And it is dead on IMHO describing the thought process of those players Cotta is talking about.

They will buy that pot of chips figuring you are a chicken when it comes to you gambling your chips.
 
Fahrenheit451

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Its more a question of them doing well, I mean some of them are making a profit/winning players

*is this just a good run and they are yet to met bad variance are my thoughts on their game. unless they are having a bad night just not concerned having a night off getting a gambling fix or something., I dunno

I can partly answer to your question, from my experience 10 min ago.

I was playing STT microstakes and when blinds went up, and only 5 players left, I start stealing blinds. Two guys on the left of me allowed this for a long time and I steal with every cards I have until one guy obviously went on tilt, thinking I have nothing, and put AI. This time I have JJ and put AI also and he was out.

After that they allowed me steal all blinds till I have all chips and they have nothing.
Of course, this wasn't cash table, only a tournament, but mechanics IMO are the same: "This style can be profitable if no one kicks back"
 
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Misdir

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Speaking of aggressive playing, did any of you watch video of Gus Hanson playing for a seat in round of 16? Playing every hand; against the best, in order to get a seat--his only chance was to come in first. It was interesting but also a lesson in sheer bravado as sometimes, he didn't even look at his cards; just all in.
 
naruto_miu

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In Dan Harrington's book volume 1 it talks briefly about these player types.

I say these player types as he breaks it down very well in (sub categories in his book).

He basically states in the book that players get broken into groups and in each group you have to deal with them differently from different positions.


1st) "Conservative"
2nd) "The Lag"
3rd) "The hyper lag"
4th) "Maniac"

But in his book he branches the 3rd&4th into one group

Now when it comes to group 3&4 you, your question is more or less stating the both groups play the same or have a somewhat (the same line of thinking), well they actually don't have similar lines of thinking, their thinking would be like day and night (Complete opposite to one another).

The 3rd group (many pros), actually would fit into that group (while the 4th group would have many donks/fish and over all maniacs in it).

The difference seems to be the ability to be able to put your opponents on a hand and actually while doing that be able to convince them that you have a different hand (better than they), while group 3 is able to do this flawlessly on a continually basis, they also realize when they are beat and thus fold without losing much chips in the process, while when they attack you gaining alot of chips in the process because of their very nature of how they play ATC (or it would seem), they do end up hitting a higher frequency of flops because they play a higher frequency than you do (and/or you miss with your high card hands and they convince you that they have hit a wet board), and when the normal (Joe), can't fold AA on a board of 835 (2 spades), the pro could easily have that 67s/33/55/88/83/85/53 and AA wouldn't know the difference giving the way the "pro" has been playing. Now while talking about the hands, their would be reasons that the said "Pro", would call with such hands (pot odds), the fact that they want to send a message they don't like their blinds attack/raised, because they feel they can out play you, they feel if they hit that you wouldn't be the wiser (and fold your over pair), maybe it's because of the simple reason that they get to close the action off in that round (many different reasons).

Now you have the 4th group, they don't care at all about nothing, they don't think about anything, and they certainly aren't doing it because of the reasons I stated above, they simply are doing it for the sheer madness of playing like trying to imitate the pro players plays (yet they are lacking the intellect to comprehend the reasons the pros are doing it).

While a prefect example of such a situation would be like this.


Say "A pro" would be in the BB with 85s, and a conservative player raised in UTG with w/e to 2.5x-3x, with blinds at 150-300 and antes at 20 at a 9 handed table.

The pro would than take into account all the money in the pot preflop

20 antesx (9) players=180+ 150(SB)+300(BB)+900 (assuming it was a 3xraise from UTG)

would= 1530 (Since 300 already in the middle from the pro), he looks at it as he would need to pay another 600.

Giving him 2.5:1 on his money.

Now at this moment he starts thinking about (UTG), and how he/she has been playing up till this point. Is he conservative/what hands does he/she play, are they crazy?

Flop comes out, and they proceed from their.


Now all those calculations don't take into effect in the mind of the maniac, they just call to call, it's as if they can't help themselves out.



I jut wanted to also state in the book, that when he does touch up on this subject, that he only has 3 categories and that he states anyone playing over 30% is just crazy, thus I included the 4th group in their.
 
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IvanShovski

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It's basically players who are logically not thinking anything other than this guy will fold if I bet big and alot of players are willing to let someone keep getting away with it rather than risk a stack that they can easilly add to in better spots.
A lot of good players will play this way if the relative stack sizes at the table favour this strategy.
 
NeverEnough

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Yes, I have noticed the same and I can't stand playing at the tables with those players. Especially when they have a big stack. They try to make profit even from hands like 6 9, or 2 8
+1
 
hobonc

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Their aggro style forces me to play only monsters,

This is what they want you to do. You should mix it up a little. Middle suited connectors. Higher suited gappers with a Q or a K. Villian's range is wide open and TP marginal kicker is likely a good hand. If villain forces a move here you can more confidently play back at him.

Just waiting for monsters to hit can cause you to lose big to two small pair etc. Plus, you always run the risk of having a wet board make you fold a winning pair to them.
 
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I really like this thread, it explains a lot...If I'm puzzled about a player who has outrageously high aggression numbers, I'll try to look him up on officialpokerrankings.com if it's merge or sharkscope if it's revolution and at least try to get an idea of whether he's a winning player or not...beware if he only has 100 tourneys or less, though, variance can be the biggest factor in that case...

the only network I play on where I don't know how to look up a player is WPN, does anyone know if there's a site to look up tourney stats on players on that network?????
 
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locha2013

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Against aggressive players i only play monsters, because its mostly an easy all in for me. I dont like to play middle cards because when you call a raise and dont flop some uesfull hands you throw your money away.
 
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clownbaby

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I am often that guy you are complaining about. If the table allows me to run it over early I will. I get lots of value from other players tilting from my style, and then getting married to an overpair or top top. I will also overshove flopped sets quite often because after playing so loose it is amazing how often you can get that call.
 
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bernotas22

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they do because you never expect at times when there aggression leads to them having a monster, and when they dominate you get mad when you overplayed a hand against such a player
 
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clownbaby

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This works best early in a tourney when I am playing in more of a deep stack cash style. Especially live tourneys with a decent starting structure. The circuit events are a good example. You have a few levels to accumulate chips because deep stack play is so rare in tourneys.
 
JusSumguy

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Yes, I have noticed the same and I can't stand playing at the tables with those players.

Just what they're counting on.

Don't give them any cheap flops. Make them pay to stay.
Wrong... the worst thing you can do is change your game to his game. Never play another mans game against him. You'll lose every time. Unless you're familiar with that game.

You get these guys with patience, solid play and trapping. This is the place for a trap. They'll do your betting for you... till the pounce.

-
 
NeverEnough

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Against aggressive players i only play monsters, because its mostly an easy all in for me. I dont like to play middle cards because when you call a raise and dont flop some uesfull hands you throw your money away.
I tend to agree. Seems like every time I hit middle or bottom pair, the other person in the pot always hits top pair.
 
NeverEnough

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You get these guys with patience, solid play and trapping. This is the place for a trap. They'll do your betting for you... till the pounce.

-
This works well for me.
 
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