Is it good to limp with small pocket pairs in tourneys?

Originally Posted by PrsHarlequin

For me it always depends on 3 things -effective stack sizes, icm, and what you got on your opponent.
Deeper, you can 3bet or flat call, 'set mining'. Shorter, and if he is cbeting a lot you should just push 66+ . In rare instances fold, when you have great 'fold equity'.
-When your chips, as few, are very worthy due to great payout jump/bubble....

Originally Posted by Lekoo

I usually limp small pockets. When playing on 6max i usually make small raise so i can build the pot if I hit a set on the flop. If that player is rock you should fold your pair because in the best case you`ve got a flip.
In the early stage you can play more small pockets and in the late stage you can just shove or fold depends on the situation (if you are shortstack, his playing style, how many bb etc)

Originally Posted by bondgaurav21

what is icm here??

Originally Posted by bondgaurav21

It is really a nice suggestion but can you tell me what is flip term means??

Originally Posted by Michael Paler

One thing you never want is to always raise UTG only with AA, KK, QQ, AK suited. Reason being that on flops with all middle cards you can get torn apart by smart players who know this. So, raising UTG (OCCASIONALLY!!!!) with a small pair or small suited connector is a great way to add some unknown parameters to your game - makes you far less predictable.

But what about when you do not hit a set or even have an overpair? Sometimes a Cbet can take it down. If you get called by more than 2 players, you might not want to Cbet the flop. When you do bet you are "semi-bluffing". Also, if you do not connect you still might want to call a bet or even check-raise. Depends on dynamics at the table/players. Nothing better than catching an over aggressive button with a set or straight draw on the turn!

Donkey betting is becoming more prevalent. They limp UTG, flat call your raise, then bet out on the flop (betting into the original raiser is what donkey betting is). Depending on what pair you have, this can put you to a decision. But folding is not always bad. Sometimes you have the D-bettor convinced he can run you over, so when you do flat call his flop bet he might well fire out big on the turn. If you got a good hand, you will probably get it all in and take him out.

Overall I would not flat call with any pair unless it's cheap. I might instead, maybe, 3 bet with a small pair or even shove, again, depends on table dynamics and my pair. If I get shoved on after I 3 bet with a small pair, I might lay it down. If I think the guy most likely has a range with only one overcard, I might go for it.

What you need to watch out for is when the guy limp-calls preflop, then bets out on a ragged board when you got a set that is not top set on the board. I flopped a set of 3's today, the guy d-bet into me on a ragged flop with an 8 as a high card. I just knew he had a set of 8's. What else would he bet so big with? A-8? Not likely. So, I called. Sure enough, he was holding 88 and took my chips. It happens. Sets are hard to get away from.

Doyle Brunsons books (Super System 1 and 2) have extensive talk about small pairs and sets, what to look out for, etc; I really recommend it.

Originally Posted by bondgaurav21

Thanks, It is really a nice suggestion for a beginner...

Originally Posted by PrsHarlequin

For me it always depends on 3 things -effective stack sizes, icm, and what you got on your opponent.
Deeper, you can 3bet or flat call, 'set mining'. Shorter, and if he is cbeting a lot you should just push 66+ . In rare instances fold, when you have great 'fold equity'.
-When your chips, as few, are very worthy due to great payout jump/bubble....

Originally Posted by ramdeebam

It really depends on your stack size and the tournament. Like, if there is lots of limping going on in a micro stakes tournament I'm ok with limping with the smallest pocket pairs because people won't know what you're doing it with.

If you're playing in a tournament where players are good then limping becomes bad.

Personally though, I will raise every hand I want to be in a pot with just so my range of hands is balanced. I know in micros it really doesn't matter in balancing your range as much but to keep things consistent I raise my worse hands exactly the same as my strongest hands so none can put me on a range of certain hands.

Also a vital and most important factor here is your stack size. If you want to limp or raise a small pocket pair you have to have the correct stack to do so. For example, if you was limping your worse pairs with 70-100bb that's fine but if your stack size or people left to act is like 30bb you have to throw these hands away especially in early position because we simply don't have the implied odds to do so.

Originally Posted by Michael Paler

One thing you never want is to always raise UTG only with AA, KK, QQ, AK suited. Reason being that on flops with all middle cards you can get torn apart by smart players who know this. So, raising UTG (OCCASIONALLY!!!!) with a small pair or small suited connector is a great way to add some unknown parameters to your game - makes you far less predictable.

But what about when you do not hit a set or even have an overpair? Sometimes a Cbet can take it down. If you get called by more than 2 players, you might not want to Cbet the flop. When you do bet you are "semi-bluffing". Also, if you do not connect you still might want to call a bet or even check-raise. Depends on dynamics at the table/players. Nothing better than catching an over aggressive button with a set or straight draw on the turn!

Donkey betting is becoming more prevalent. They limp UTG, flat call your raise, then bet out on the flop (betting into the original raiser is what donkey betting is). Depending on what pair you have, this can put you to a decision. But folding is not always bad. Sometimes you have the D-bettor convinced he can run you over, so when you do flat call his flop bet he might well fire out big on the turn. If you got a good hand, you will probably get it all in and take him out.

Overall I would not flat call with any pair unless it's cheap. I might instead, maybe, 3 bet with a small pair or even shove, again, depends on table dynamics and my pair. If I get shoved on after I 3 bet with a small pair, I might lay it down. If I think the guy most likely has a range with only one overcard, I might go for it.

What you need to watch out for is when the guy limp-calls preflop, then bets out on a ragged board when you got a set that is not top set on the board. I flopped a set of 3's today, the guy d-bet into me on a ragged flop with an 8 as a high card. I just knew he had a set of 8's. What else would he bet so big with? A-8? Not likely. So, I called. Sure enough, he was holding 88 and took my chips. It happens. Sets are hard to get away from.

Doyle Brunsons books (Super System 1 and 2) have extensive talk about small pairs and sets, what to look out for, etc; I really recommend it.

Originally Posted by missjacki

fold equity has nothing to do with YOU folding and everything to do with the equity you gain by causing your oppoent to fold. Folding our own hand is always neutral or "zero" equity, which is oftentimes better than continuing with a negative equity line. Hence the expression "folding is free".



Ramdeebam is spot on!



I agree in general with your suggestions except 1 thing: don't worry about set over set...seriously it should not even be a blip on your radar. yes, it can happen but it is rare and the true definition of a cooler. You should almost never fold KK preflop and you should almost never fold any set on the flop (even bottom set). The exceptions are so rare and specific that your game as a whole would not suffer to simply ignore those exceptions.

Originally Posted by Michael Paler

Were I playing in a cash game, no, I would not worry about set-over-set. However, cooler or not, in an MTT it really is something to consider, if losing can knock you out of the MTT.

That was what took out Phil Ivey last year in the WSOP main event. The board and number of players in the hand was such that he had to have a warning bell going off. He was looking at a big re-raise from a good player into a player who just bet out - what could the guy have? A flush draw? Top two? With three players in the pot you gotta know someone has something better than two pair or a draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A5pfTB4ElA

Originally Posted by missjacki

suit yourself. I realize it CAN happen. just like kings CAN run into aces all in preflop (in fact your kings will run into aces a lot more often than you'll face set over set on the flop). Just because it CAN happen doesn't mean you need to guard against it. An asteroid can hit the earth at any time essentially wiping out human civilization; but it's not productive to my life as a whole to worry about it or even really think about it.

The reason I've come to this conclusion of "don't fold a set on the flop" is because I've learned through the school of hard knocks. I've folded sets on the flop a few times because I knew I just "had" to be beat because of the action. So, I make a tough fold and get shown an overpair vs. 2 pair. Or an overpair with a flush draw vs. a smaller set. Or a big combo draw vs 2 pair. (all 3 of those really happened).

And then there are the times that I didn't fold, got shown a monster hand such as a straight or a flush, and then the board pairs and I scoop. Sets are hard to flop and too strong to fold, ESPECIALLY in tournament poker where you don't have all the time in the world to wait for rock solid situations.

just my opinion of course!

Originally Posted by missjacki

I did watch that video with Phil Ivey. You say it's impossible for somebody to have a flush draw or 2 pair there....I disagree...big time disagree. For instance the 1st reraiser had only TPGK. You don't think it's possible for somebody to have AT or KsJs or KsQs there? nut flush draw plus a gutshot in a big multiway pot...and you think they would obviously just fold it-huh? I disagree.

Fair enough, yet after a C-bet by the original raiser, a raise by the next guy, and almost a 1/2 pot re-raise from yet another...you have to wonder what they are doing it with. Average Joe with a flush draw might either shove or re-raise or just call - but a pro, especially one who has the same size stack? Not likely. These guys know how to make hard laydowns. They do it all the time. Would the pro go 1/3rd his stack in a 3-way pot with only top 2 or a draw after 2 players show such strength on the flop? No. It screams a set, IMHO

You say it's impossible but in reality 2 pair, monster combo draws, and sets are ALL possible and a set is the least likely of those three. When facing that entire range Phil takes an aggressive line. You claim Phil should have known he was facing a range of ONLY bigger sets. Let's not forget that we, the viewers at home have the benefit of the hole cam to know what's actually going on Good point, we are monday morning quarterbacking here. But these guys know you do not go to war with as little as two pair.. I wonder how Phil Ivey would respond to your assertion that he should have known he was facing a bigger set do you think he'd say "yeah man, you're right. they can only have a set there. I should have just mucked" Well, he has before!! Why not then?or do you think he would say something like "I was crushing both of their combined ranges And what was in those ranges? AA and 10-10!and the pot was already big enough to warrant taking it down on the flop. Dude had the top of his range that time, on to the next tourney..."

Again, I think a bigger set, given the circumstances and players, was obvious. Or should have been. They could not both have a flush draw or 2 pair with the action as it played out. Sure enough, only one had an ace. So what does that leave for the 3rd man? What's better than an ace, two pair or draw? ANOTHER SET!

and here's the flip side...then shouldn't the guy with the set of tens be able to now fold to Ivey's shove because he doesn't have the stone cold nuts either No, as he could only lose to AA. What would a guy who is first to act do when he flops top set in a 4 way pot? Check, and hope someone bets. Not c-bet and hope it gets raised. Remember - there was a flush draw. So, what would ivey do with top set but facing a possible flush draw? Well, he would have bet enough to not give the draw good pot odds. He didn't do that, did he? Why not? Well, becasue he does not have AA would be at the top of the list, wouldn't it?. After all, Ivey was the preflop raiser. couldn't he have a set of aces? sure he could. and if 2 pair, and combo draws are IMPOSSIBLE in this situation and clearly everybody should KNOW that they are impossible so Ivey knows they are impossible too....right? so then using your same line of thought, the set of 10s should fold to Ivey's obvious set. facing a range of ONLY SETS and with all the action leading up to him, obviously Ivey should easily fold his set of 3s and so the only possible hand that remains in Ivey's range is a set of aces. so....hence....the set of Ts should fold, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2y40U2LvKY


Obviously, I'm being facetious there...but I maintain my position that for the most part we shouldn't be folding sets on the flop. The exceptions are rare enough not to really worry about too much. This hand you posted might even be one of those exceptions and it's still not an obvious fold, IMO.

Ok Michael, you are articulate and nice to debate with and you're making lots of good points, I just happen to disagree with some of them.

Well, good, because I am not an expert by any means!!

edit: how the heck do you add a youtube video so that you can just click the video instead of having to click the link?

Originally Posted by Michael Paler

Fair enough, yet after a C-bet by the original raiser, a raise by the next guy, and almost a 1/2 pot re-raise from yet another...you have to wonder what they are doing it with.

Originally Posted by missjacki

so, the actual bet sequence on the flop was a 16,000 Cbet by Ivey, a reraise to 41,000 by the guy with AQ and then a flat call by steinberg with the set of tens. at no point did yet another 3rd player make another raise. it went Cbet, Raise, flat, jam.

also, both Ivey and Steinberg are facing only 1 hand that could really beat them because Steinberg elected to just flat in an already multiway pot preflop you can practically rule out AA. So, Ivey only loses to TT and Steinberg only loses to AA. In a huge pot in a MTT when there is only 1 hand that could feasibly beat you it's just a cooler when you get it in and your opponent actually has that hand. So whether Ivey had AA and Steinberg lost with his middle set, or whether Ivey had 33 and lost with his bottom set...either way it's just a cooler. set over set on the flop is just a cooler.

anyways...as much as I'm enjoying this (I think we both like to debate and have the last word! ) We are probably derailing the thread a bit. The question is should you limp your small pocket pairs....what you and I are talking about only loosely applies to that orginial topic...especially since in the Phil Ivey hand, it was not a limped pot.

Originally Posted by bondgaurav21

Hello friends!!

My name is Gaurav Sharma and I always have big problem in playing small pocket pairs less than 8.

Actually, It becomes more difficult situation for me when anyone in button raise (2xBB,3xBB,4xBB) me .

So, my question is I have to limp him or raise him from big blind with small pocket pairs such as seven pocket pair.

Kindly, give me any suggestion with a solid proof. So, i can rectify this problem asap.

Thanks

Originally Posted by revskip

I usually like to limp early in tournaments in early position with pairs lower than 8 and raise from late position if I am the first person coming in.

My reasoning is in early position I want to be able to call a raise and try to hit a set against a big hand that raised or see a multi-way pot with several other limpers since either situation increases my possible pot equity if I hit. In late position I am more than happy to either get a call or two out of the blinds to build a pot in case I get a set or am equally happy to just take down the blinds with my small pair if they fold.

Originally Posted by Doug McFarlane

Limping with low pairs like 66, 55, 44, 33 and 22 is risky. Wins are 51%, meaning 5100 times of 10,000 hands played. Conversely, losses are 49%, meaning 4900 of 10,000 hands played. Any kind of limping is noted by opponents because this implies weakness, uncertainty or stealth. So, call pre-flop, nothing more, because betting or raising can escalate risks to stacks. The notion "if I can call, then I can raise" does not apply well herein. Nor is it reasonable to raise with low pairs unless the plan is to bluff from the get-go. Otherwise, do not bet or raise low pairs pre-flop. If any player raises or re-raises post-call or post-bluff pre-flop, then FOLD immediately.

Position counts with low pairs; later is optimal. It reveals who plays and does not; how many play and fold; and who bets, raises and re-raises. Limping from an early position can mean later punishment to stacks, even if the loss is only equal to the big blind. In tournament play, banroll management informs many decisions when it comes to playing low pairs. Better, as they say, with a deep stack...

A low pair wants to trip on the flop. If it does not trip, check, if possible, hoping for a free card at the turn. If a player raises, if another re-raises, if cards with higher values than the held low pair present in the flop, then fold because the loss potential is already there. It is risky and costly to chase trips faced with over cards. If there is a trip on the flop, then the odds of winning climb, and the next move is critical. Trips are reasonably strong hands at any given stage. Still, low trips are vulnerable, so take a really good look at the board. If the potential for the trips to win is present, then bet opponents out by raising high ASAP. Try not go to the turn or the river if avoidable. Sometimes it ain't...