Is it bad to call an all-in with QQ?

F

Foxhound3857

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Total posts
151
Chips
0
I was 8.2 orange M-Zone, picked up queens, reraised the original villian to raised me, he goes all in, I snap call, he had aces. Knocked me out.

Was this a bad call on my part? Should I have folded? I know with kings it's an automatic call, but I had QQ, so I'm not so sure.
 
Ezekiel162

Ezekiel162

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
788
Awards
1
Chips
5
I've always heard that "...it takes a stronger hand to call a raise then to make the original raise itself..." I'll assume that would apply doubly for a re-raise. With an M level that low I would have considered going all-in ahead of this player at the first available opportunity but the outcome would have been the same either way because most players will never fold aces pf (and sometimes not even after, even knowing on a wet flop they no longer have the advantage.) Seems you were dealt a cooler.
 
Worak

Worak

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Total posts
6,024
Chips
0
Even without knowing villains M and barring other reads I would have probably 3bet shoved QQ there instead of calling the 4bet so the outcome would have been the same, just a cooler imo.
 
F

Foxhound3857

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Total posts
151
Chips
0
Villians M was green 22.7.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,602
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
'M' schmem. Who talks in 'M' value?
 
C

commanderpants

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2012
Total posts
42
Chips
0
All in all, a fair move! You needed to up your stack and you had great cards. It's a shame about the villain's hand being better, but think about it: The probability that the large stack is simply putting you (short stack) all-in with half decent cards is pretty good. Long term, your QQ will hold up against most showdowns in this situation = profitable!
 
S

sagiPOTM

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Total posts
129
Chips
0
QQ is said that its very strong hand, but actually i dont hink so, any A or K on the flop will pwn you since its hard that someone go all in with zero A or K... But its clasic, if somone have pair, there is always one or more pairs in other hands, i dont get it why....in your case AA... :S
 
Worak

Worak

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Total posts
6,024
Chips
0
QQ is said that its very strong hand, but actually i dont hink so, any A or K on the flop will pwn you since its hard that someone go all in with zero A or K... But its clasic, if somone have pair, there is always one or more pairs in other hands, i dont get it why....in your case AA... :S

QQ is the 3rd best starting hand after all preflop - and they were both all in pre.

I guess ignoring the second part of your post is the best way to comment that.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
QQ is said that its very strong hand, but actually i dont hink so, any A or K on the flop will pwn you since its hard that someone go all in with zero A or K... But its clasic, if somone have pair, there is always one or more pairs in other hands, i dont get it why....in your case AA... :S
It's a sizable exaggeration to say that the range for going all in has to include an A or K. And even if the opponent has one, QQ is roughly a 7:3 favorite vs a single overcard.

The betting sequence does indicate the villain has a hand, but his range is still wider than AA KK AK. With a stack that some would consider shove or fold-sized, it's time to stick it in.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
The times you should fold QQ preflop in an MTt are going to be pretty rare. You need a nit cold 4-betting you or multiway action that strongly indicates someone with KK+. Even then, you will be folding the best hand quite a bit because you will see a ton of AK/AK or AK/JJ confrontations. And if someone's range is KK+/AK you will often have odds to continue if you've already 3- or 4-bet.
 
KingCurtis

KingCurtis

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Total posts
9,946
Awards
1
Chips
1
I agree %100 with baudibi1. These things happen and sometimes you'll be on the other end as well. Soon enough, this question will no longer exist for you and calls or shoves with this hand and they stack size will be automatic.

Also the structure and buy-in of the MTT might also have a slight effect on the situation.
 
F

fugitive67

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Total posts
275
Chips
0
just a cooler, he could have just as easily flipped over AK or JJ ... when you add it all up, you made the right move ... don't let that sick feeling of ... "i knew he had it" mess you up going forward
 
beanstalk

beanstalk

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Total posts
47
Chips
0
OP

I think your mistake was not getting all the money in yourself. You started with roughly 16 BB. Based on the action (not entirely clear based on your post) I think you 3 bet the villain without sticking in your entire stack. You must of had about 10BB left when you called the all-in. You are pot committed for sure, so you should make a 3bet jam and not just a small 3bet. In fact, when you get dealt QQ with 16 BB, i don't think you are ever folding against one opponent...even a UTG raiser...unless you have good history and he's so tight it's AA, KK, and AK only.
 
K

kanselau

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Total posts
439
Chips
0
QQ is said that its very strong hand, but actually i dont hink so, any A or K on the flop will pwn you since its hard that someone go all in with zero A or K... But its clasic, if somone have pair, there is always one or more pairs in other hands, i dont get it why....in your case AA... :S
with a M of 8 QQ is preety much a monster go ahead and wait alittle longer for AA and you will get called and loose to 7 9 because someone is going to call you down coz your so short. Get those ladys in there as fast as you can.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
OP

I think your mistake was not getting all the money in yourself. You started with roughly 16 BB. Based on the action (not entirely clear based on your post) I think you 3 bet the villain without sticking in your entire stack. You must of had about 10BB left when you called the all-in. You are pot committed for sure, so you should make a 3bet jam and not just a small 3bet. In fact, when you get dealt QQ with 16 BB, i don't think you are ever folding against one opponent...even a UTG raiser...unless you have good history and he's so tight it's AA, KK, and AK only.

it's probably a jam, beanstalk makes a good point. M of 8 without antes = 12bb, M of 8 with antes = ~20bb. without antes, it's an easy jam because you never 3bet fold a weak hand. with antes, it depends on positions and your image; if you have an image where someone might think you 3bet fold, then 3bet small. if you don't, then jam. if you think he's opening light, or if he's opening late position, you can also 3bet small, to encourage a light 4bet jam from him.

also tenbob - villain M might not matter "all that much" but it does matter. villain's M and the M of everyone left to act after villain should be taken into account as it will dramatically affect villain's opening range.
 
Chessplayer

Chessplayer

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2012
Total posts
30
Chips
0
To figure out if you made the right call First step: What type of player reraised you: Is this player a very conservative player or capable of playing any 2 cards? If you believe he was hyper aggressive then this was a correct call but lady luck wasn't on your side. If this was a conservative player and he raises you , but not all in, call and see how the board did. If he raises you try to get a read on him. Remember you can tell him your cards to try to get an read on him. If you call and see a flop and either an ace or a king or something strong gets on the board then probably fold.
 
Ezekiel162

Ezekiel162

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
788
Awards
1
Chips
5
These are good points 'player. Since i've resorted to playing cash games myself lately i've started use a HUD which has proved absolutely invaluable. The stats will give you an idea of you who you're dealing with and opponent tendencies. For example, the VPIP and the PFR, if both are really low and the opponent comes out doing what was mentioned by OP then I would think really hard... Same with a low WSD vs High WSD/win rate... plus other considerations as well... But still, as others above have mentioned, with OP's M-level being what it was the best move would have been to shove at the first available opportunity...
 
Roller

Roller

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Total posts
2,140
Awards
4
US
Chips
164
Shoving QQ into one caller - shove atc situational dependent
Calling a jam with QQ - hmmmm good luck with that.

Simply - What was his shoving range.
Were you ahead of said range.
 
sam1chips

sam1chips

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Total posts
800
Chips
0
As for a general answer, I'd say how many people at the table, as well as the tendencies of the re-raiser are the biggest components of the call/fold. I've found it's easy to throw away jacks, and easy to call with kings, QQ is very aggrevating cuz i never know what to do...
 
Chessplayer

Chessplayer

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2012
Total posts
30
Chips
0
No, in certain decisions like small stacked it's fine to go all in.
 
Top