In the heat of the game - the thoughts.. please comment

vegasjj · Mar 20, 2014

Sorry - hand converter did not work on this not sure why...

Was a $3.30 Buy-in great value added - 138 runners, 15 itm - top 5 get prizes - next 10 share grteed $500.
Starting chips 2500, 10 minute blinds, freeze-out
I removed the forum name - out of respect for CC
I Do see a whole bunch of things I COULD have done differently - and they would have been justified, and would have led to better results.
However I'd like to share the driving thoughts during the hand - and get feedback about their validity - or how wrong they were IN THE MOMENT.
This is an exercise where I am looking for assistance with "self evaluation"

GAME #5589730560: Holdem NL - 2014-03-20 20:33:01
Tournament (823712125)
PS4 & Apple TV giveaway
Server poker24.ipoker.com
Round
Failsafe counter

Seat 1: immrsusan (Registration code: -) (5,763.00 in chips)
Seat 2: 95alive (Registration code: -) (2,950.00 in chips)
Seat 4: poisonlukop (Registration code: -) (2,043.00 in chips)
Seat 5: vegas88jj (Registration code: ) (2,614.00 in chips)
Seat 6: crookedace (Registration code: -) (3,474.00 in chips)
Seat 7: GamerisWW (Registration code: -) (2,340.00 in chips)
Seat 9: razviboss (Registration code: -) (4,000.00 in chips)
Seat 10: naddya (Registration code: -) (2,719.00 in chips)

vegas88jj: SB 30.00
crookedace: BB 60.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to vegas88jj [DQ C2]
GamerisWW: Call 60.00
razviboss: Fold
naddya: Fold
immrsusan: Fold
95alive: Fold
poisonlukop: Fold
vegas88jj: Call 30.00
Did consider folding, due to bad position - but decided it is worth 30 chips to see the flop
crookedace: Check
*** FLOP *** [H2 S2 SK]
vegas88jj: Bet 120.00
Was delighted to see the flop - considered slow play - felt was too dangerous, (2 spades), considered big bet - felt I will short change myself - decided on 2/3 pot bet
crookedace: Fold
GamerisWW: Call 120.00
*** TURN *** [H2 S2 SK H5]
vegas88jj: Bet 420.00
I was happy with the turn (of course had no idea) but wanted to prevent further draws - so bet pot size - was hoping for a fold - but was expecting to be ok if I get called too.
GamerisWW: Call 420.00
*** RIVER *** [H2 S2 SK H5 HK]
vegas88jj: Check
Was not happy with the K, did not want to initiate more chips in the pot, sort of wanted to see the next move.
GamerisWW: Bet 1,020.00
vegas88jj: Call 1,020.00
This was hard, my chances were pretty slim - but had a hope in hell that the opponent caught a spade flush... could not bring myself to fold, knowing that was a real possibility. He sure made a real nice bet size. Made it very hard not to call for me.
*** SHOW DOWN ***
vegas88jj: shows (mucked) [DQ C2] (Full house)
GamerisWW: shows [D5 S5] (Full house)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,300.00
GamerisWW: wins 3,300.00

In retrospect I wish I folded pre flop... I don't think that would have been a bad decision at all.
And of course - should not have called the last bet... it really was very unlikely that he does not have a FH - although I did not expect the 55 (true) but expected a K. BUT my excuse... if opponent would have hit the flush... it could have been a good play from him to make that bet - to make me think he got a FH...

Really appreciate if I can get feedback on the way I thought... I think I would get more out of that then just a "correct play" explanation.

THANK YOU!

WiZZiM · Mar 20, 2014

"In retrospect I wish I folded pre flop... I don't think that would have been a bad decision at all."

the most important thing you can take away from this hand. I'm not folding due to just bad position, i'm folding because our hand has terrible flopability. if you had something like 87s, or 96s, then sure, go ahead and limp in, those hands are great, but Q2 off suit? we hit a queen are we going to be happy about it?

why are you considering the slowplay? does it make sense to slowplay here at all? no one has shown aggression in this hand, it's likely no one has anything on this board. it's a good board to slowplay on, but this isn't the situation for it. we're not worried about the flushdraw so much, since that's literally the only draw availiable to have, it just happens very infrequently. so we're betting here to build the pot, to get value from draws (however unlikely), to get value from weaker hands like pairs/kings and stuff like AQ/AJ if they cannot fold it postflop. we also want to bet because if the flush draw does hit, it kills action, it scares people into folding, that's not what we want. in regards to your bet sizing, 2/3 is fine, personally on this board i'd be betting way smaller, like 30-40% of the pot, the one main reason is i want really weak hands to call me on a board that a lot of the time no one has flopped anything good at all.

turn is a blank, all good to keep betting, i'd keep it small again, that really can't improve villians range much. betting around 40-50% of pot now and if they call, i'd almost certainly put them on kings or smaller pocket pairs. why are we hoping for folds? we have trips on a really dry board, we WANT calls! we want people to put money in when they are likely behind, we want them to call with flushdraws, we want them to call with AQ high. hoping for folds is really being results orientated about this hand (i'm assuming you lost this, haven't looked at results yet)

the king sucks, it's a pretty big part of villians range, i'd be betting still, but betting to block his bet on river/extract value from weaker hands still. so something like 1/5 pot would be great. if villian shoves we can deal with it then and there by just folding, in your spot here, it makes it really tough when we check, because we're just playing a guessing game, i'd likely fold, but also i wouldn't be in the situation in the first place.

so i'd be folding preflop here 100% of the time.

flop, i'd bet something like 90, pot would then be 360 on turn if they call.
turn then i'd bet around 140, if they call pot is then 620

river i'd bet around 140 again to block them from betting themselves. i'm not just betting this for the hell of it, it's a bet/decide. by betting ourselves, it makes it harder for our villian to bluff, so when they raise us on the river, we have to give him credit. not saying i'm just folding, but it would depend on how big the raise size was, and how many chips i'd be left with if i lost.

vegasjj · Mar 20, 2014

WiZZiM said:
"In retrospect I wish I folded pre flop... I don't think that would have been a bad decision at all."

the most important thing you can take away from this hand. I'm not folding due to just bad position, i'm folding because our hand has terrible flopability. if you had something like 87s, or 96s, then sure, go ahead and limp in, those hands are great, but Q2 off suit? we hit a queen are we going to be happy about it?

why are you considering the slowplay? does it make sense to slowplay here at all? no one has shown aggression in this hand, it's likely no one has anything on this board. it's a good board to slowplay on, but this isn't the situation for it. we're not worried about the flushdraw so much, since that's literally the only draw availiable to have, it just happens very infrequently. so we're betting here to build the pot, to get value from draws (however unlikely), to get value from weaker hands like pairs/kings and stuff like AQ/AJ if they cannot fold it postflop. we also want to bet because if the flush draw does hit, it kills action, it scares people into folding, that's not what we want. in regards to your bet sizing, 2/3 is fine, personally on this board i'd be betting way smaller, like 30-40% of the pot, the one main reason is i want really weak hands to call me on a board that a lot of the time no one has flopped anything good at all.

turn is a blank, all good to keep betting, i'd keep it small again, that really can't improve villians range much. betting around 40-50% of pot now and if they call, i'd almost certainly put them on kings or smaller pocket pairs. why are we hoping for folds? we have trips on a really dry board, we WANT calls! we want people to put money in when they are likely behind, we want them to call with flushdraws, we want them to call with AQ high. hoping for folds is really being results orientated about this hand (i'm assuming you lost this, haven't looked at results yet)

the king sucks, it's a pretty big part of villians range, i'd be betting still, but betting to block his bet on river/extract value from weaker hands still. so something like 1/5 pot would be great. if villian shoves we can deal with it then and there by just folding, in your spot here, it makes it really tough when we check, because we're just playing a guessing game, i'd likely fold, but also i wouldn't be in the situation in the first place.

so i'd be folding preflop here 100% of the time.

flop, i'd bet something like 90, pot would then be 360 on turn if they call.
turn then i'd bet around 140, if they call pot is then 620

river i'd bet around 140 again to block them from betting themselves. i'm not just betting this for the hell of it, it's a bet/decide. by betting ourselves, it makes it harder for our villian to bluff, so when they raise us on the river, we have to give him credit. not saying i'm just folding, but it would depend on how big the raise size was, and how many chips i'd be left with if i lost.

Thank you soooo much for taking the time and giving me such a elaborate answer/help.

I guess - the main lesson is - do not be tempted with hopeless hands - in hopeless spots - simply because it is cheap... (the preflop call). I guess it CAN turn out real successful, but as in this example - it will more often lead to disaster then to victory.

Just a clarification - post flop - I was thinking about - getting value - not sure I expressed it well - "considered big bet - felt I will short change myself - decided on 2/3 pot bet" but it was very much part of my thinking.
It was much less so after turn - I guess I would just be happy to take the pot - perhaps a mental block - but I do not see myself as a player that gets the crds when needed - but mostly I get outdrawn somehow.. so as we approach the river - I would love the safety of just taking the pot - without a confrontation. So this is the other area I need to work on. (LOL among many others)

About post river play.. in a way I did better then I do at times... At times I get too pissed and too emotional and I go all-in in a situation like that. That is practically suicide - in my mind it is showing the finger to the dam river, "you want it - here have it" - so pure emotion. In this case - it is possible that it may have saved me... CRAZY GAME?

Arjonius · Mar 21, 2014

vegasjj said:
BUT my excuse... if opponent would have hit the flush... it could have been a good play from him to make that bet - to make me think he got a FH...

The problem with this thinking is that if his flush is good, you'll fold and he wins the same pot he'd win by checking behind. If he succeeds in making you think he has a boat and you call anyway, his flush is no good and he loses at least 1k more than necessary. Betting his flush does win when you call with less, but how likely is that?

So betting his presumed flush isn't a good play. It's essentially a no-win. He might do it, but to assume that he would is to assume he's making a rather poor play.

vegasjj · Mar 21, 2014

Arjonius said:
If he succeeds in making you think he has a boat and you call anyway,
So betting his presumed flush isn't a good play. It's essentially a no-win. He might do it, but to assume that he would is to assume he's making a rather poor play.

I meant the scenario - where he makes me assume that he has a boat - and with that makes me fold. Sorry for not being clear about that.

teepack · Mar 21, 2014

I tell you, you have to let crap go sometimes, no matter how cheap it is to get into the hand. I was playing a live tourney in Iowa and the guy under the gun started with a min raise. Everybody else folded to me (I was the BB). The tourney had been going for about an hour and a half, so blinds were not terrible, and I had built up my stack somewhat, so I decided what the heck, I called with my 3-2 suited. The flop comes up A-5-J rainbow. I check and he checked. The turn comes up 4, so I've got my 5-high straight and thinking I've got the pot because I was assuming he was betting an Ace. I decided to play it coy and check and he checked. I was really hoping he would bet and I was going to come back over the top with an all-in shove. The river comes up an 8. This time I did bet, and he raised me. Feeling for certain I had him, I went all-in. He called and flipped over a 6-7 forn an 8-high straight, knocking me out of the tourney. If I had just folded those cards to begin with I would have kept playing. The moral of this lesson: You can play with your junk if you want to, just don't do it at the poker table.

Arjonius · Mar 21, 2014

vegasjj said:
I meant the scenario - where he makes me assume that he has a boat - and with that makes me fold. Sorry for not being clear about that.

I assumed the scenario where he rivers the flush, you check and he bets in the hope you'll assume he has a boat. Did I misinterpret?

vegasjj · Mar 21, 2014

teepack said:
The moral of this lesson: You can play with your junk if you want to, just don't do it at the poker table.

Well said, well said!

PS. I am a girl

vegasjj · Mar 21, 2014

Arjonius said:
I assumed the scenario where he rivers the flush, you check and he bets in the hope you'll assume he has a boat. Did I misinterpret?

Yes that is what I was referring to.

With that - he would bet with just flush in hand - hoping to make me believe he has a good boat, and as such making me to fold.
It could possibly be a strategy opponent may use at that point (was my comment)...

jj20002 · Mar 21, 2014

the issue was the hole hands preflop, i mean Q2 is not a hand, not even is the flop is free, Q2 is a hand that gives you time to play in other tables (when multitabling), don[t waste your time and chips playing with that hand again

by the other hand it was very likely that the villain had a low pair considering he limped so if he wasnt afraid of 2 kings in the board is very likely to hit a full, so next time be a little more cautious about this kind of info because it can save a lot of chips,

tohos · Mar 22, 2014

vegasjj said:
Did consider folding, due to bad position - but decided it is worth 30 chips to see the flop

Wrong reasoning, if you are folding its because hand is trash, it doesn't matter where your position is, you are not calling an open raise with Q2o. As it is, if you DO play such trash hands, the blinds are a better position to play these since you get a discount. No point in playing these trash from any other position unless you face incredibly weak tight passive fish.

vegasjj said:
Was delighted to see the flop - considered slow play - felt was too dangerous, (2 spades), considered big bet - felt I will short change myself - decided on 2/3 pot bet

Fair enough, better to lead out in a limped pot when you do hit against unknowns.

vegasjj said:
I was happy with the turn (of course had no idea) but wanted to prevent further draws - so bet pot size - was hoping for a fold - but was expecting to be ok if I get called too.

I read this, I already knew villain had 55... try not to reveal results in your post. As for your reasoning, wrong. When you have a very strong hand such as in this case, you want your opponents to call with worse hands so you can get value. If you want people to fold when you have a much better hand than theirs most of the time, when do you want them to call?

vegasjj said:
This was hard, my chances were pretty slim - but had a hope in hell that the opponent caught a spade flush... could not bring myself to fold, knowing that was a real possibility. He sure made a real nice bet size. Made it very hard not to call for me.

Yes the K is bad. Its really disgusting. Given he bet so big and we still have a good stack size, but would end up with a slightly awkward one if we call and lose, I say fold. Its a pretty tough spot though. Hard to play against unknowns. Spots like these are why you don't play trash hands like Q2o

Arjonius · Mar 22, 2014

vegasjj said:
With that - he would bet with just flush in hand - hoping to make me believe he has a good boat, and as such making me to fold.
It could possibly be a strategy opponent may use at that point (was my comment)...

Betting when he rivers the flush is probably not a good play because it very seldom results in winning more chips than checking behind would, and could more often result in losing more. Sure, he might be trying it anyway; people make less than optimum plays all the time.

However, what I'm saying isn't that it's impossible for him to be betting a flush. It's that in order for calling to be +EV, you have to assume the times he's making this sub-optimal play constitute at least 1/3 of all the times he bets the river, which seems rather high.

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In the heat of the game - the thoughts.. please comment

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