ICM shortcuts for live tournaments (or online without calculators)?

OK, I haven't played poker in a while, but I'm gearing up to start again soon. After catching up with some of the posts here, it seems that ICM is all the rage. I play online, but I do so in hopes of playing in live games. Thus, I don't really want to use an ICM calculator. However, that doesn't mean that I don't want to use the basics of ICM that I can carry over to a live tournament.

Does anyone here use ICM without ICM calculators? I'm not asking if you work the math out to four decimal points (if you do, I can't do that). But do you use the ICM concepts in some way that you feel is useful? You know, like a shortcut of some kind?

Let me give an example where you can use ICM without a calculator. Maybe you would call it common sense, but doesn't it use ICM concepts? OK, here it is:

Five players remaining and top five positions pay: $100, $99, $1, $1, $1 (contrived, I know)

Big stack has 1,000 chips, hero has 10 chips, and remaining three players have 1 chip each. Doesn't ICM pretty much tell us that the hero *never* call a preflop shove by the big stack? Even with AA!

I know that's contrived, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding the concept properly.

Also, are there some less-contrived situations were ICM can be used live or without a calculator?

Thanks a lot for any help. I like the concept, but I think some kind of shortcut or something is needed for live play. Or do you just have to use your gut?

-Dave

The whole point of ICM calculators is to run over situations before you go into a game. After a while of studying, you have the ranges in you're head and you just know what to do in certain situations.

I don't think there's STT in live games, it's all satellites(similar to double or nothings) or MTT. A MTT prize structure is entirely different to a STT. Read a book called "Kill Everyone", gives a way to approach ICM in MTT

pat3392 said:

I don't think there's STT in live games, it's all satellites(similar to double or nothings) or MTT. A MTT prize structure is entirely different to a STT. Read a book called "Kill Everyone", gives a way to approach ICM in MTT

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ICM really only comes into play at final tables of MTT's.

And there are STT in live games,it depends on the venue. I'm pretty sure Melbourne has a range of STT (OZ will know), and Brisbane used to have 20 man STT for a while, but not sure if they still do. In america, i'm sure there would be a lot of STT games availiable. Most are 20-30 mans, but i've seen some 9 man games also. The blind structures are usually turbos (15 mins) and blinds go up dramatically, so getting ranges down isn't going to be a big deal, just make sure you shove a lot at the end, you'd be suprised what types of hands players fold to you when decent money is on the line.

WiZZiM said:

ICM really only comes into play at final tables of MTT's.

And there are STT in live games,it depends on the venue. I'm pretty sure Melbourne has a range of STT (OZ will know), and Brisbane used to have 20 man STT for a while, but not sure if they still do. In america, i'm sure there would be a lot of STT games availiable. Most are 20-30 mans, but i've seen some 9 man games also. The blind structures are usually turbos (15 mins) and blinds go up dramatically, so getting ranges down isn't going to be a big deal, just make sure you shove a lot at the end, you'd be suprised what types of hands players fold to you when decent money is on the line.

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Early game is still influences by ICM. We can't attack limpers/play draws as fast in STT as we can in MTT, even less so in cash

wowo that'd be awesome to play live STT. Probably be raked at 30% though, typical bs casino rates, sigh

pat3392 said:

Early game is still influences by ICM. We can't attack limpers/play draws as fast in STT as we can in MTT, even less so in cash

wowo that'd be awesome to play live STT. Probably be raked at 30% though, typical bs casino rates, sigh

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I think early game it's less an issue of "ICM" forcing different plays as it is the fact that it's a tournament situation and not cash. Even in the start of an MTT where cEV~=mEV you still do things differently than you might in cash because other tournament considerations come into effect (eg. single elimination/no reloads/etc).

The local indian casino I go to from time to time did 9-man SnGs for a few weeks. They were okay, but the structure was about the same as an online turbo and the rake was over 15%. I think it was $30+5. I guess they weren't appealing enough to most people because that only lasted something like 2-3 weeks.

They have STT here in NJ but the ones I have heard of winner takes all.

Lofwyr said:

I think early game it's less an issue of "ICM" forcing different plays as it is the fact that it's a tournament situation and not cash. Even in the start of an MTT where cEV~=mEV you still do things differently than you might in cash because other tournament considerations come into effect (eg. single elimination/no reloads/etc).

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I think not being able to reload is still ICM

kmixer said:

They have STT here in NJ but the ones I have heard of winner takes all.

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Well that's not STT than, at least in the type of game sense

WiZZiM said:

The whole point of ICM calculators is to run over situations before you go into a game. After a while of studying, you have the ranges in you're head and you just know what to do in certain situations.

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OK, that's good to know. Then maybe I'll just try a calculator and see what it has to say. Thanks.

pat3392 said:

I don't think there's STT in live games

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Yeah, sorry, I was referring to MTT. In my example, we had gotten to the final table with 5 players remaining.

I guess I'll just have to try a calculator and see if/when it tells me to act differently than I normally would. I'm still suspecting that with a "normal" payout structure, there have got to be some rules of thumb that stand out, but of course I can always try to find them myself!

Thanks again everyone.

WiZZiM said:

And there are STT in live games,it depends on the venue. I'm pretty sure Melbourne has a range of STT (OZ will know)

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AFAIK Crown offer them, I've never played one though and I've got no idea how often they run. They certainly wouldn't be as popular as cash games or MTTs in either case.

Home games will be getting played as STTs all the time though, even if they don't use that terminology.

/derail