ICM nash calculator...

Just look through some scenarios now and wondered if anyone disagreed with the calling range in this spot. I know nash has it's faults when applied to HU but I'm not sure about for bubble play.

blinds 100/200

Button (2000) hero
SB (750)
BB (250)

hero is dealt 33. Hero???

Alternate scenario:

Hero is dealt K6o. Hero?

Both of these hands I'm snap shoving, in fact I shove ultra wide in this spot. According to the nash calculator I'm shoving 33%. Just seems way off imo.

Been a long time since I looked at Nash, years even. But, I thought it was really geared to HU and began to break-down the more and more players there were. Yes/no?

Anyway, without resorting to Nash, I'm shoving the 3-3 while realizing it should be a snap call for the BB and in all likelyhood we'll basically be flipping. K6os, I'm waiting for a better spot, but that's me. I'm a nit.

Big_Rudy said:

Been a long time since I looked at Nash, years even. But, I thought it was really geared to HU and began to break-down the more and more players there were. Yes/no?

Anyway, without resorting to Nash, I'm shoving the 3-3 while realizing it should be a snap call for the BB and in all likelyhood we'll basically be flipping. K6os, I'm waiting for a better spot, but that's me. I'm a nit.

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Well in HU it's an unexploitable strategy, since your edge in poker comes form exploiting you opponent then you'd lose money playing by nash. So whilst it's sort of good for HU it doesn't really come into effect until you're shallow. For example if i know villian only calls a shove with TT+ then I'm making a huge mistake by not shoving ATC (presuming we're fairly shallow), some hands that nash says to fold I should be shoving to exploit my opponent and I lose a shit load of money by not doing so. I just wondered if ICM nash calculator had a similar sort of fault.

BlueNowhere said:

Well in HU it's an unexploitable strategy, since your edge in poker comes form exploiting you opponent then you'd lose money playing by nash.

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Ok, I see your point here, but you're playing Hyper-Turbos, right? Do you really have the time to figure-out what type of strategy your opponents are using and how to best exploit that strategy before you both become so short that it's obvious shove/fold time? Not saying you don't; I've never played the hyper format. Just wondering....

Big_Rudy said:

Ok, I see your point here, but you're playing Hyper-Turbos, right? Do you really have the time to figure-out what type of strategy your opponents are using and how to best exploit that strategy before you both become so short that it's obvious shove/fold time? Not saying you don't; I've never played the hyper format. Just wondering....

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Well you start with 25bb and you don't really need to use nash till 8bb deep so you have plenty of time to work out how your opponent is playing. If they really attack limps for example with 12bb limp/shoving is probably best. Obv without reads you can't exploit specific things like unblanaced ranges but you can still exploit them.

BlueNowhere said:

Well you start with 25bb and you don't really need to use nash till 8bb deep so you have plenty of time to work out how your opponent is playing. If they really attack limps for example with 12bb limp/shoving is probably best. Obv without reads you can't exploit specific things like unblanaced ranges but you can still exploit them.

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That makes sense. I'm going to have to check a few of these things out. Probably just observe at first. Also, I'm on Carbon so I don't know what the traffic for them would be like. I'm not particularly interested in actually playing them at this point as I'd be absolutely dead money, but I am curious....

at first glance my thought would be we're shovin close to 100% on this spot. What does SNGWiz say?

I don't seem to be able to get SnGWiz to work when I download it so I'm not sure what it says. My instinct would've been to shove almost ATC in this spot, maybe drop the bottom 15% or so because the SB will call too wide.

Instashoving both 33 and K6o here

So apparently ICM nash calculator is a pointless tool.

We're not shoving anywhere near 100% here, the BB is in, why do we have to take the showdown with the bottom 50% of hands? doesn't seem logical at all.

i'd say about 40% of hands would be a decent shove range here. We dont have FE so we're essentially accepting a showdown for no particular reason other than feeling like we have to knock everyone out.

ANd i'd prefer K6 here anyday of the week.

WiZZiM said:

We're not shoving anywhere near 100% here, the BB is in, why do we have to take the showdown with the bottom 50% of hands? doesn't seem logical at all.

i'd say about 40% of hands would be a decent shove range here. We dont have FE so we're essentially accepting a showdown for no particular reason other than feeling like we have to knock everyone out.

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This was my thinking, like I said early on in this thread.

WiZZiM said:

ANd i'd prefer K6 here anyday of the week.

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Although I apparently chose the wrong one..... I'd said I would shove 3-3, pass on K-6os. Your reasoning for preferring K6?

Hes calling with a 100 range. High card kings play better against that range than low pps

It's probably pretty close in this spot actually, but yeah give me K8s over pocket 3's here and i'd be pretty happy.

Plug it into stove if you have time, might suprise you

WiZZiM said:

Hes calling with a 100 range. High card kings play better against that range than low pps

It's probably pretty close in this spot actually, but yeah give me K8s over pocket 3's here and i'd be pretty happy.

Plug it into stove if you have time, might suprise you

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Agree. I'd take the K8s as well. K6os v. 3-3, is, I think, pretty close. I don't have pokerstove on this computer, but I'll check it later on my other one. Thanks.

I probably shove too wide in bubble spots then because I shove like 75-80% here, just dropping the junk fromk my range.

One more thing about this spot, if we fold, the Sb can only get 500 chips, instead of gaining that extra hundred from the SB if we shove and he folds. If he wins then he's now up to 600 i believe, which makes a differance in these shallow stacked Hypers, a bit differance actually.


It's fine to jam wide in heaps of spots as the big stack, but this isn't a good time. We want to have FE, not willingly taking showdown.

I like to think about spots im unsure like this.

Do i need the chips? will they help me get first? does knocking out the BB help me a lot?

Will SB shove on BB? If he might fold, will it affect things?

Does letting the SB knock out the BB really affect things too much HU?

There are plenty more scenarios or questions you can ask yourself to help you in these spots.

ok, ICM nash calculator it may help but really guys, does it mean if u have 60% chance to win hand that u WILL win it? Or 53% chance to win it i mean wtf :S I think its a lot about feeling when to play what on poker.

sagiPOTM said:

ok, ICM nash calculator it may help but really guys, does it mean if u have 60% chance to win hand that u WILL win it? Or 53% chance to win it i mean wtf :S I think its a lot about feeling when to play what on poker.

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Ermmm what?