Did I play wrong?

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KarlAbbott01

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10Ao and in an early position pre flop and raising? I would of limped in just to see the flop. How has the Villian been playing? Is he loose or tight? Is he only playing big hands?

On the flop however, you do have top pair so I would of been hesitating to fold at that point myself (considering the player's actions previously) I most certainly wouldn't of pushed due to the 10 you had and simply due to the outs left. My opinion and I ain't even at a good standard of poker yet (I've only started to study a couple of weeks ago lol) it was a bad pre flop raise and a bad move on the flop for you to shove all in, on the pre flop he called you're raised, then on the flop you ended up checking giving him the edge to raise, after this raise I personally would of thought to myself he has this A but what about the kicker? Does he have AK, AQ, AJ? Once again this all down to previous hands and how he has been playing.

I hoped my opinion counted for something mate.
 
MMello

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10Ao and in an early position pre flop and raising? I would of limped in just to see the flop. How has the Villian been playing? Is he loose or tight? Is he only playing big hands?

On the flop however, you do have top pair so I would of been hesitating to fold at that point myself (considering the player's actions previously) I most certainly wouldn't of pushed due to the 10 you had and simply due to the outs left. My opinion and I ain't even at a good standard of poker yet (I've only started to study a couple of weeks ago lol) it was a bad pre flop raise and a bad move on the flop for you to shove all in, on the pre flop he called you're raised, then on the flop you ended up checking giving him the edge to raise, after this raise I personally would of thought to myself he has this A but what about the kicker? Does he have AK, AQ, AJ? Once again this all down to previous hands and how he has been playing.

I hoped my opinion counted for something mate.

I understand your insight, my reason for the raise pre-flop was that the table in general was a bit tight except for the villain, if I had a little value a raise was worth. The villain was a bit loose in general but one thing I noted after this hand is that the only hands he played against me were AA (twice) and this AK.

He'd only get a bit looser when I wasn't in the hand (or he had pot odds). When he paid my pre-flop raise I got a bit worried because of the previously AA's.

Post-flop: I'm now thinking that I should've cbet'ed, there isn't a good reason for the check, however after his raise of 75% of the pot I thought he wouldn't have a reason to raise this much if he wanted to get called, maybe a middle pair or a bad kicker for the A (worse than T), hence the shove.

Just like you, I've just started to study (a week perhaps) and now I see the hand was poorly played. Thanks for the comments.
 
Grinderella

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Hi,

Thanks for posting. I'll try help as best as I can. Just looking at this situation, we have a pot of $1200 which is the total blinds and antes before any bets. Most players at the table are pretty deep apart from the big blind and the guy on your left. The first problem I can see here is that you’re using ‘BB’ remaining on your HUD which is giving you a false impression of the stacks at the table. I’m sure you’re aware of Tournament ‘M’? It is a stat that you should definitely have in front of you. I would edit your Hud and replace ‘Big Blinds with ‘Tournament M’ instead. Looking at the table your HUD is telling you this:


SB 35 Big Blinds
BB 21 Big Blinds
UTG 1 27 Big Blinds
UTG 2 (You) 36 Big Blinds
MP1 14 Big Blinds
MP2 62 Big Blinds
HJ 34 Big Blinds
CO 84 Big Blinds
BTN 31 Big Blinds
SB 35 Big Blinds
BB 21 Big Blinds


I won’t go into the exact calculation of M here as it would be too much waffle but you can learn about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ratio (sorry if you already know about this, I’m just being thorough). But very basically: The stacks here are a lot shallower than it appears. I’m going to use 2/3rd's just as an estimate. Each of the players at your table has a lot less room to breathe than it seems. Due to the size of the blinds and antes relative to the stacks, the effective big blinds left that everyone has are (approximately):


SB 24 Big Blinds
BB 14 Big Blinds
UTG 1 18 Big Blinds
UTG 2 (You) 24 Big Blinds
MP1 10 Big Blinds
MP2 41 Big Blinds
HJ 22 Big Blinds
CO 60 Big Blinds
BTN 20 Big Blinds
SB 24 Big Blinds
BB 14 Big Blinds


As you can see, at least 3 of the players including the Big Blind are in worse shape than it first appeared and we can expect them to be making a move soon. So opening with ATo in this spot is dangerous. The Big Blind really should have been shoving there with any sort or a decent hand instead of flatting but there ya go. Ok, so you picked up ATo (A reasonable hand but a little too weak in EP at a 9 handed table when you still have 24 effective big blinds left. You are UTG2 and raised $1750 (3.5bb) over a pot of $1200, quite an overbet of the pot. I’m uncertain why you chose this size but I expect it was to induce more folds. A pot sized or 2bb bet would have accomplished the same thing at this depth, and would have controlled the pot/SPR better (you gave yourself no room to breathe). The problem with ATo in this spot is that if no-one calls, then great! But there’s 7 people to get through which means there is a reasonable probability that a better hand will call. Also, the big blind is getting a great price, and an even better price with 1+ more caller (Which is exactly what happened). I was amazed that MP1 didn’t shove but we’ll move on.


So we have the CO who has AK in good position. He knows that a player with your comfortable stack size in early position would not be risking a lot of chips OOP without at least some kind of a strong Ace or Pair. As he has blockers for Aces and Kings, he knows that the combos of hands that beat his are less likely than hands he beats, and at worst he has all of them dominated except AA. He’s also pretty deep and knows he will have good position for the rest of the hand. An easy call. The BB completes as he’s getting a decent price (3:1) on seeing a flop, and isn’t in push of fold territory just yet (but close to it). The pot on the flop is $5050 giving the BB an SPR of 2.



The flop is fairly moist here (Some draws and obviously the Ace) so I think your check was fine as you were only getting called by monsters and good draws. The problem with the check-shove line was that the relative stack sizes meant that you didn’t have much fold equity on the CO. He was was the deepest stack there and was not really that worried about elimination. Your shove of ($16,174) over his ($4500) bet with a total winnable pot of ($26,624) meant that he needed [ ($16,174-$4500) / $26,624 ] 44% equity to make the call. He figured that with AK in his hand, and another A showing on the board, there were not that many combos of hands left that were beating his. The only hands he could really fear were {AA, 55, and 66}. He could already discount the two baby sets as these small pairs wouldn’t have overbet the pot from EP2, and it was hard to put you on AA when there was only 1 combo of this hand available. Adding all of this up, his call was unavoidable.



Given his fishy VPIP/PFR I can understand how you might have assigned him a weaker range than AKo+, but without his positional stats or further tournament context, it’s hard for others to judge. You were there! We weren't. His stats can be explained by possibly being very active during the low levels, stacking a few bums and then nitting up as the blinds increased (giving him the artificial stats a loose maniac). But, basically the most important factor here was the stack sizes. He had you covered twice over and knew that he could chip up for cheap. The best question to ask before that shove would have been “What hand did the CO happily call an EP overbet with and was willing to bet almost pot against multiway with 2 shorter stacks ready to shove”. Answer: A very strong hand. Also despite his loose stats, his low 3Bet% and High F3Bet% tell me that this player does not get involved in big pots unless he’s got a hand, and now you're witnessing him betting almost the size of the pot multiway ... Run away!



Overall though, I think the sizing of your preflop raise put you in a very tough spot on the flop. With an SPR of 3 and an Ace on board you had pretty much pot committed yourself. But the key mistake I think was being in the hand to begin with. Next time, with those relative stacks and poor table position you will know that ATo UTG2 can be folded comfortably while you wait for a better spot. (Pauses for breath .... ) Hope this helped, thanks for reading :)


G
 
sryulaw

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I would check on the flop, the hand range, your opponents' cards have many AAs, hud, I would control the pot, to follow in the tournament.
 
smerald

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I have to agree with Grinderella here and say you did misplay this. At such an early position, it is not outside of the norm to fold ATo. And making it 3.5BB is a fairly big raise and you just put yourself in a tough spot with it. I would fire a continuation bet on the flop though, (0.5 pot) and unfortunately would have to fold to a push instead of check raising all in.
 
MMello

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Hi,

Thanks for posting. I'll try help as best as I can. Just looking at this situation, we have a pot of $1200 which is the total blinds and antes before any bets. Most players at the table are pretty deep apart from the big blind and the guy on your left. The first problem I can see here is that you’re using ‘BB’ remaining on your HUD which is giving you a false impression of the stacks at the table. I’m sure you’re aware of Tournament ‘M’? It is a stat that you should definitely have in front of you. I would edit your Hud and replace ‘Big Blinds with ‘Tournament M’ instead. Looking at the table your HUD is telling you this:


SB 35 Big Blinds
BB 21 Big Blinds
UTG 1 27 Big Blinds
UTG 2 (You) 36 Big Blinds
MP1 14 Big Blinds
MP2 62 Big Blinds
HJ 34 Big Blinds
CO 84 Big Blinds
BTN 31 Big Blinds
SB 35 Big Blinds
BB 21 Big Blinds


I won’t go into the exact calculation of M here as it would be too much waffle but you can learn about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ratio (sorry if you already know about this, I’m just being thorough). But very basically: The stacks here are a lot shallower than it appears. I’m going to use 2/3rd's just as an estimate. Each of the players at your table has a lot less room to breathe than it seems. Due to the size of the blinds and antes relative to the stacks, the effective big blinds left that everyone has are (approximately):


SB 24 Big Blinds
BB 14 Big Blinds
UTG 1 18 Big Blinds
UTG 2 (You) 24 Big Blinds
MP1 10 Big Blinds
MP2 41 Big Blinds
HJ 22 Big Blinds
CO 60 Big Blinds
BTN 20 Big Blinds
SB 24 Big Blinds
BB 14 Big Blinds


As you can see, at least 3 of the players including the Big Blind are in worse shape than it first appeared and we can expect them to be making a move soon. So opening with ATo in this spot is dangerous. The Big Blind really should have been shoving there with any sort or a decent hand instead of flatting but there ya go. Ok, so you picked up ATo (A reasonable hand but a little too weak in EP at a 9 handed table when you still have 24 effective big blinds left. You are UTG2 and raised $1750 (3.5bb) over a pot of $1200, quite an overbet of the pot. I’m uncertain why you chose this size but I expect it was to induce more folds. A pot sized or 2bb bet would have accomplished the same thing at this depth, and would have controlled the pot/SPR better (you gave yourself no room to breathe). The problem with ATo in this spot is that if no-one calls, then great! But there’s 7 people to get through which means there is a reasonable probability that a better hand will call. Also, the big blind is getting a great price, and an even better price with 1+ more caller (Which is exactly what happened). I was amazed that MP1 didn’t shove but we’ll move on.


So we have the CO who has AK in good position. He knows that a player with your comfortable stack size in early position would not be risking a lot of chips OOP without at least some kind of a strong Ace or Pair. As he has blockers for Aces and Kings, he knows that the combos of hands that beat his are less likely than hands he beats, and at worst he has all of them dominated except AA. He’s also pretty deep and knows he will have good position for the rest of the hand. An easy call. The BB completes as he’s getting a decent price (3:1) on seeing a flop, and isn’t in push of fold territory just yet (but close to it). The pot on the flop is $5050 giving the BB an SPR of 2.



The flop is fairly moist here (Some draws and obviously the Ace) so I think your check was fine as you were only getting called by monsters and good draws. The problem with the check-shove line was that the relative stack sizes meant that you didn’t have much fold equity on the CO. He was was the deepest stack there and was not really that worried about elimination. Your shove of ($16,174) over his ($4500) bet with a total winnable pot of ($26,624) meant that he needed [ ($16,174-$4500) / $26,624 ] 44% equity to make the call. He figured that with AK in his hand, and another A showing on the board, there were not that many combos of hands left that were beating his. The only hands he could really fear were {AA, 55, and 66}. He could already discount the two baby sets as these small pairs wouldn’t have overbet the pot from EP2, and it was hard to put you on AA when there was only 1 combo of this hand available. Adding all of this up, his call was unavoidable.



Given his fishy VPIP/PFR I can understand how you might have assigned him a weaker range than AKo+, but without his positional stats or further tournament context, it’s hard for others to judge. You were there! We weren't. His stats can be explained by possibly being very active during the low levels, stacking a few bums and then nitting up as the blinds increased (giving him the artificial stats a loose maniac). But, basically the most important factor here was the stack sizes. He had you covered twice over and knew that he could chip up for cheap. The best question to ask before that shove would have been “What hand did the CO happily call an EP overbet with and was willing to bet almost pot against multiway with 2 shorter stacks ready to shove”. Answer: A very strong hand. Also despite his loose stats, his low 3Bet% and High F3Bet% tell me that this player does not get involved in big pots unless he’s got a hand, and now you're witnessing him betting almost the size of the pot multiway ... Run away!



Overall though, I think the sizing of your preflop raise put you in a very tough spot on the flop. With an SPR of 3 and an Ace on board you had pretty much pot committed yourself. But the key mistake I think was being in the hand to begin with. Next time, with those relative stacks and poor table position you will know that ATo UTG2 can be folded comfortably while you wait for a better spot. (Pauses for breath .... ) Hope this helped, thanks for reading :)


G

First, thanks for the lesson, it certainly helped, the first time I've heard of the M-ratio was by accidentally clicking on the Jivaro HUD but I didn't gave it much credit because I've always seen BBs as a measure, is it that much better at providing info?

Your hand review is basically the classic "fold pre" haha, but really, great analysis and now I understand why I lost. The guy knew who he was playing against and that's why he didn't 3bet his AK, knowing that I'd fold.

Thanks again and I'll work on actually thinking about the hand while playing it.
 
Grinderella

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You're very welcome. Great hand example. Bummer about busting out but whenever this happens we learn a tonne that we take to the next game. So it's all good. The M-Ratio is a measure of the health of our stack during a tournament. It's the number of orbits we can withstand before we get blinded out. It's more useful than 'bb' because it takes antes into account too. This is important because antes bleed away chips that need to be used to pay for future big blinds. As you may be aware, a stack size of less than 10bb generally puts us in a Push/Fold situation during the tournament. Many players mistakenly read their HUD which might say 12bb so they think they can still play regular Poker. But the ABB or 'Adjusted Big Blinds for this player is actually 0.66*12 or 8bb. This means that the player was already in Push/Fold mode and didn't realise it. ABB' is what you really need to have on your HUD. Like the 'M' Ratio it measures stack health in terms of Big Blinds. It's essential because it takes into account the Antes that you need to pay too to survive each orbit. Using BB works fine in the earlier stages where there are no antes, but not later on. The best way to set up yur HUD is to use ABB as your default Big Blind stat. This way it will work during both the Ante and Non-Ante phases of the tournament. M is good to have too so you know how many orbits you've got left.

G
 
MMello

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You're very welcome. Great hand example. Bummer about busting out but whenever this happens we learn a tonne that we take to the next game. So it's all good. The M-Ratio is a measure of the health of our stack during a tournament. It's the number of orbits we can withstand before we get blinded out. It's more useful than 'bb' because it takes antes into account too. This is important because antes bleed away chips that need to be used to pay for future big blinds. As you may be aware, a stack size of less than 10bb generally puts us in a Push/Fold situation during the tournament. Many players mistakenly read their HUD which might say 12bb so they think they can still play regular Poker. But the ABB or 'Adjusted Big Blinds for this player is actually 0.66*12 or 8bb. This means that the player was already in Push/Fold mode and didn't realise it. ABB' is what you really need to have on your HUD. Like the 'M' Ratio it measures stack health in terms of Big Blinds. It's essential because it takes into account the Antes that you need to pay too to survive each orbit. Using BB works fine in the earlier stages where there are no antes, but not later on. The best way to set up yur HUD is to use ABB as your default Big Blind stat. This way it will work during both the Ante and Non-Ante phases of the tournament. M is good to have too so you know how many orbits you've got left.

G

Just read a huge discussion on Cardschat regarding ABB vs M and I think I prefer ABB, it looks simpler because almost all poker material talks about BBs, thanks again!
 
Grinderella

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Good stuff! Yeah get ABB added. It will let you know when you really need to make a move. If you'd had it during the hand above, you would've known straight away by reading the other player's ABBs that you were in a bad ATo spot!
 
A

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Many players lose their mind when they have A. Completely forgetting that in the pocket are two cards.By your game you reminded me of them.
 
paulinhlt

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Yeah, you played it wrong. There was a lack of range technique from the opponent, which was not very difficult for you to get this reading.

1. In the position you are in, you can never raise as big a raise as you did, you raised almost 4bet. This hand should open at the maximum of 1,150 chips.
2. Your raise of almost 4x, if you take a call or re-raise you will be behind your opponents, even more if the table hits A. Your opponents will only call your raise with AK, AQ AJ. .. so if you took 2 calls in the pre-flopp, and hit an A on the table, it's obvious that you're behind.
3. If the beta face almost 1 pot means that he hit A, he would not be wanting to kick you out of the hand, and you were the initial aggressor.
So your shove was totally wrong, you did not set the defined ranges for your opponent.

Poor play partner.
 
S

Samuel Kollapso

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What a beautiful explanation of Grinderella, I had thought of the line of disconnection of the hand, without many reasons only because of the position, more with this explanation, now to think more about the disconnection of the hand.
 
ShinGraze

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Grinderella, great analysis, I'd differ slightly on some smaller points - I don't mind his betsizing PF, as the antes give any callers better pot odds. The last thing he wants it to invite a heap of callers with position on him..
But for that matter, I'm possibly mucking A10o in this spot anyway.

Also that flop is not that wet IMO. 2 diamonds and 2 other connected cards which aren't as dangerous as, say, 9-10 peeling off. There's only 2 other aces in the deck as well.

I'm preferring a cbet here because, as played, your check raise all in is only getting called by a very narrow range which has you shredded. In comparison, if you Cbet and gets shoved at, you shouldn't stack off with your one-pair modest kicker. Potentially you're pot committed, but that's the line I'd take.

Mmello, you say Grinderella's answer is the "classic fold pre"... hard to know what classic is when you've only been analysing for a week? Grinderella makes solid points throughout, showing their experience. Funnily enough though, here's a great example of how starting hand selection is sooooo important..
 
froggeedogs

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A very good analysis of this play. I will actually keep this in mind myself for future play.
thnx
 
C

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flush draw there

I understand your insight, my reason for the raise pre-flop was that the table in general was a bit tight except for the villain, if I had a little value a raise was worth. The villain was a bit loose in general but one thing I noted after this hand is that the only hands he played against me were AA (twice) and this AK.

He'd only get a bit looser when I wasn't in the hand (or he had pot odds). When he paid my pre-flop raise I got a bit worried because of the previously AA's.

Post-flop: I'm now thinking that I should've cbet'ed, there isn't a good reason for the check, however after his raise of 75% of the pot I thought he wouldn't have a reason to raise this much if he wanted to get called, maybe a middle pair or a bad kicker for the A (worse than T), hence the shove.

Just like you, I've just started to study (a week perhaps) and now I see the hand was poorly played. Thanks for the comments.



Grinder said it all but there are a few things to consider about how you read his play and why he bet as big as he did Of coarse he would re raise if I was him I would of pushed why limp or small raise and let you get to flush if you had suited connectors also a straight draw unlikely but you could of made this raise pre flop on 7 8 diamonds which gives you way to many outs to no push back as you say it was a fairly tight table I would assume you are playing at least moderately aggressive which would put this a real possibility that you are holding a draw hand and I am ahead so pretty obvious raise with a high A
 
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MMello

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Grinderella, great analysis, I'd differ slightly on some smaller points - I don't mind his betsizing PF, as the antes give any callers better pot odds. The last thing he wants it to invite a heap of callers with position on him..
But for that matter, I'm possibly mucking A10o in this spot anyway.

Also that flop is not that wet IMO. 2 diamonds and 2 other connected cards which aren't as dangerous as, say, 9-10 peeling off. There's only 2 other aces in the deck as well.

I'm preferring a cbet here because, as played, your check raise all in is only getting called by a very narrow range which has you shredded. In comparison, if you Cbet and gets shoved at, you shouldn't stack off with your one-pair modest kicker. Potentially you're pot committed, but that's the line I'd take.

Mmello, you say Grinderella's answer is the "classic fold pre"... hard to know what classic is when you've only been analysing for a week? Grinderella makes solid points throughout, showing their experience. Funnily enough though, here's a great example of how starting hand selection is sooooo important..

About the "classic fold pre" I said it this way because I've read a topic on 2p2 about how most hands posted would fall into that category
 
MMello

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Grinder said it all but there are a few things to consider about how you read his play and why he bet as big as he did Of coarse he would re raise if I was him I would of pushed why limp or small raise and let you get to flush if you had suited connectors also a straight draw unlikely but you could of made this raise pre flop on 7 8 diamonds which gives you way to many outs to no push back as you say it was a fairly tight table I would assume you are playing at least moderately aggressive which would put this a real possibility that you are holding a draw hand and I am ahead so pretty obvious raise with a high A

I agree, it really was like that, thanks again!
 
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This is a tough position, but in a tournament like this you have to take chances. This spot is definitely one which sometimes I would do what you did and others I would fold or just limp and wait for a reraise after me.
 
Grinderella

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Grinderella, great analysis, I'd differ slightly on some smaller points - I don't mind his betsizing PF, as the antes give any callers better pot odds. The last thing he wants it to invite a heap of callers with position on him..
But for that matter, I'm possibly mucking A10o in this spot anyway.

Also that flop is not that wet IMO. 2 diamonds and 2 other connected cards which aren't as dangerous as, say, 9-10 peeling off. There's only 2 other aces in the deck as well.

I'm preferring a cbet here because, as played, your check raise all in is only getting called by a very narrow range which has you shredded. In comparison, if you Cbet and gets shoved at, you shouldn't stack off with your one-pair modest kicker. Potentially you're pot committed, but that's the line I'd take.

Mmello, you say Grinderella's answer is the "classic fold pre"... hard to know what classic is when you've only been analysing for a week? Grinderella makes solid points throughout, showing their experience. Funnily enough though, here's a great example of how starting hand selection is sooooo important..



Thanks, yeah my main point to get across was that the ATo should have hit the muck to begin with. As for the sizing, good logic about not wanting to give pot odds etc, but observe that he had 7 opponent's to get through. Regardless of the bet size, a hand better than ATo would not be folding anyway. The the 4x raise accomplishes very little. In terms of the board moisture, I would consider a 2 flushed 2 connected board to be wet enough to use caution but agreed about the T9. I would not be auto-cbetting here with those effective stacks when the range of monsters that will at least call, is that high. A cbet/call situation would only shrink the SPR further and make the turn a nightmare. Had he check folded to the Villain's pot sized bet, he would've have been able to accept folding and still would have had enough to go through the blinds and wait for a better spot. Great to read everybody's take on this, was a really interesting hand. Thanks.

G
 
VinnyStrat

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Aside from all of the other analysis, you won't go far in many tournaments getting your chips AI with 1 pair when you're not short stacked.
 
MMello

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Aside from all of the other analysis, you won't go far in many tournaments getting your chips AI with 1 pair when you're not short stacked.

Completely agree, I'm glad I came here to ask about the hand because all of the analysis are great and helped me understand what I've been doing wrong, overvaluing a top pair is a common mistake.

Quick follow-up question: If I had AQo, what would you guys do from the beginning of the hand?
 
Grinderella

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AQo has an equity of 64.5% vs. any random hand. There are 7 players to get through but I would say in an MTT the max players going to the flop would be 3. AQo has about 47% Vs. 2 opponents. So it would be a coinflip raise at best from such an early position. Now lets compare that to ATo. Against 1 opponent with any random hand ATo has 63% and this will drop to 45% against 2 opponents. Given that the big blinds call was at such a great price and either 1 of the CO or BTN were likely to call, this was always gonna go multiway. So overall there's not a massive difference between AQo and ATo in this spot. I think with the effective stacks in this situation and your poor table position, either of those hands would have put you in the same spot. Think about the Ace that hit the flop. Either way you were crushed, the only difference between having a T or a Q is that there are less hands beating you but the position is just as weak.
 
ShinGraze

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Also as discussed, why some of us will fold ATo PF here - you end up with a very tough situation post flop. This is what you'd call a pretty decent flop for you. But as SPR is low, you're committed either way and with the A out there, you're either way ahead (and won't get any further value) or way behind and cough up your position in the tournament.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
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I'd drop A10 off pre here. Even if it's a tight table playing Oop is very hard with A10. Let:s say someone shoved, what would you do?
Nice analysis from grindella. I never new about this m model. Good to know
 
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