Did I play this wrong?

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Colehain

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I'm playing a $100 freeze out and about 70 people played in the tournament and were down to about 15 people left SB 800 BB 1600. Started off with 10,000 chips and at about this time I was the chip leader in the tourney with over about 40,000 chips. Short stack out our table goes all in with A9 clubs, for 16,000, everyone else folds until the small blinds wakes up with pocket 10's and just calls, and then there's me in the BB with pocket kings. I end up going all in and the person in the small blind thinks about it and then eventually calls with about 20,000 left behind. I was really surprised he called and was very happy to see his 10's until he happens to bust me with the flop J-7-5-8-9 hitting runner runner for a straight. Did I do the right thing by shoving in that spot? Or should I have just called?
 
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deffcity

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a bit confused, how did he bust you if you were the chip leader?

but in any case, a call would of been better as there are 2 ppl before you and kk doesn't do that well with multiple hands, maybe even a fold would since small stack went all in and sb calls, i know its hard since kk is a very strong hand, but when you're behind you have to think, if they got pocket pairs, then they can easily hit a set, or ace rag could easily hit a ace,.


edit. i only advise this since u said u were the chip leader, if you 10bbor less than yes all in is a good call
 
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MEJ

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That would have been a huge lay down. Not sure how you can argue for it, actually. The villain sucked out. It happens.
 
dmitriy skripka

dmitriy skripka

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in this case, I would be dropped and not risk, especially if I'm chip leader
 
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sillymunchie

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havent been at the tables in a while but i MMTs were definately my strong point, and most of the time you get busted out on you will always doubt your own play....

The truth is at the table you have to ask yourself are you there to make money.....
Varience can be a real pain, it really can but its essential for poker, the chance aspect can only be beaten if your making the right moves.
There are plenty of things that could be thinking but KK is beating most hands in this situation,

player 1 : 10BB he has a huge range of hands
Player 2 : leaving himself little fold equity you know he has to call
we can safely assume he doesnt have high cards since he called and didnt reraise, so i feel you are ahead of most of his range and without any fold equity a shove or fold is the only option, but i dont see how you can fold here
player 3 [you]: 20 - 30BB need to play strong hands hard

so yes you seem to have made the correct play, you just got really unlucky and had you won you are now in Prime position to take down the tournament and win big


Lesson : Play for the win, playing passively with strong hands in tournament poker is one sure way of winning small ammounts but the serious players will always play for the win or leave the tournament trying
 
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parakon

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Hello.:) I write my opinion.I fold KK in this case.

I think it is a role that the large chip player calls short stuck's shove(all-in).Because it is necessary to reduce players.
However,it is the end game; and at the early stages; think that is not necessary.

KK is strong hand. Most of players are not at a loss whether they use it.
But this case ,may surely change the situation that you have advantage(=to remain chip leader).

If it is the situation, I think that I wait until players decrease a little more or a game advances.
You may feel that it is wrong to surrender a strong hands.

Only as for such a case, sees a board becomes the monotone and draw heavy.
(At the moment when I watched the board, I can imagine the hand of the opponents.Our higher pocket pair is attacked and sunk them.)
I think that it happens quite often. I'm short stuck and all-in. A good board(=cards) comes,I wait while expecting win.
According to the person who participated in a strong hand(and have many chips),I am not involved in this at all・・・.

There was no luck this time,but you need to count backward about play hands, winning prize and progress of the game.
And think that it is necessary to think about a timing to set it.

I am sorry not to be able to explain it well.The poker is difficult.
Because various ways of thinking cross.Only probability is not all.
 
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SBEP

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Mb u should have 3bet to 20K in stead of going all in pre flop, and right after the flop push him all in, i think he could have founded a fold, a very tight fold since he took time to call the short stack for just 16K, but then again right after the flop if u push him allin, its not a guarantee he would make that fold, it is possible, but then again most of his chips are already in the pot his pot committed and i guess he would go allin, if u have played like that then i would have said well played to bad he sucked out on you, like this u did not leave yourself and the guy u pushed around any fold equity, i know its hard to walk away from that pot but its not impossible :D
 
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Colehain

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Sorry to fix the confusion I was chip leader but I did lose a few hands with AK before hand so there was another person at my table with around the same stack, and he was the one in the SB that busted me.
 
IntenseHeat

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You got your chips in with the best hand. That's about the best thing you can do. Just because someone gets incredibly lucky and catches half the deck on you doesn't mean you didn't make the right play.

I really don't get the argument that you should have laid down what was most likely by far the best hand because you were the chip leader. Was that kind of thinking how you got to be the chip leader? Play smart, not scared.
 
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deffcity

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You got your chips in with the best hand. That's about the best thing you can do. Just because someone gets incredibly lucky and catches half the deck on you doesn't mean you didn't make the right play.

I really don't get the argument that you should have laid down what was most likely by far the best hand because you were the chip leader. Was that kind of thinking how you got to be the chip leader? Play smart, not scared.

well from my perspective, if I'm the chip leader, and I'm deep in the tourney, why do i want to risk an all in with 1 all in and 1 potential all in before me? id wait for a better spot to get it in where I'm in control of the pot and aggression rather than tip toeing behind into the unknown, its not like he was drowning, he had a good stack. I've seen pros lay down big pairs in similar situations, and end up on final table and taking it down, just coz u got kings or aces it doesn't mean u should shove
 
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Nutcracker69

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In poker, to be successful, you need to be results oriented.

So, since you lost, yes you played it wrong. The only viable option here is flatting the preflop action, shoving the flop and hoping the jack scares him into folding his 1010.

But no matter what I think you lose here everytime so from now on always fold kk preflop just to be safe.
 
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sillymunchie

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what makes me laugh is ppl saying because he is the chip leader and can potentially knock you out you should fold....

why not look at it another way, going against the short stack you potentially can win a small ammount from them but they can cripple your chip lead but against the big stack if you win vs him your in prime position to finish on the podium
tournament poker is not about cashing small its about going for that number 1 spot because the podium is where the real money is at
 
milencenov

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I'm playing a $100 freeze out and about 70 people played in the tournament and were down to about 15 people left SB 800 BB 1600. Started off with 10,000 chips and at about this time I was the chip leader in the tourney with over about 40,000 chips. Short stack out our table goes all in with A9 clubs, for 16,000, everyone else folds until the small blinds wakes up with pocket 10's and just calls, and then there's me in the BB with pocket kings. I end up going all in and the person in the small blind thinks about it and then eventually calls with about 20,000 left behind. I was really surprised he called and was very happy to see his 10's until he happens to bust me with the flop J-7-5-8-9 hitting runner runner for a straight. Did I do the right thing by shoving in that spot? Or should I have just called?

1. If starting stack is 10,000 and 70 players register, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be chip leader with 40,000 when 15 people are left !!!

The AVERAGE stack at this point is 10,000 x (70/15) = 46,667 !

You cannot have less than average stack and be the leader !

2. Even if you had spy camera and knew the cards of both opponents in advance, saying that allin was best, is NOT so easy !!!

If 70 people started, I assume it is only the final table (9 or 10 ?) who get in the money !

There is one WRONG thning about probablities that many people apply, as if it is right.

People count CHIPS.

You are near the bubble. You have an unfoldable allin player and one caller with a stack almost equal to yours.

In the best case, you win it all and... you are big chip leader, but still not in the money, with a lot more hands to play...

Middle case - you win against the big stack, but the small one picks an A and wins the main pot. You lose 16,000 to him and win 20,000 from the big stack. Net result - 4,000 more chips that do not dramatically improve your position.

Worst case - lose 36,000 to 10-10 and soon bust with the remaining 4,000.

Now let us NOT count chips and count MONEY !

If you win, there is absolutely NO guarantee that you will remain chip leader until the end of the tournament.

If you lose, there is 100% guarantee you do NOT win ANY money and even lose your buyin ! Always factor the buyin in the analysis !

It is the NET profit that makes your bankroll.

Now probabilities:

I just input the three hands in the CardsChat odds Calculator. (I can explain the whole mathematics, but I want to cut it short)

KK wins 54.77%, tie 0.27%, loss 44.96%.

And in 27% you don't lose, but win the minimal 4,000.

While in 18% you almost bust.

3. I personally would have called pre-flop.
Probably, on the flop I would shove and then say 100 times "f*ck you, poker software" after the turn and river appear...




4. I have had numerous situations to bust on the bubble with AA, KK, QQ and AK against pathetic hands of huge stack bingo players.

And I did the math...

YES - there ARE cases when on the bubble, you MUST FOLD even AA, if you evaluate the scenarios in terms of MONEY and not in CHIPS.

I wrote about those peculiar situations in another thread.
 
milencenov

milencenov

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In poker, to be successful, you need to be results oriented.

So, since you lost, yes you played it wrong.

So, you (as you frequently do actually !) go all-in with J-9, I call with A-A.

Then, 8, 10 and Q appear...

And the conclusion is - calling allin with AA is wrong !

Yes, it can be in some peculiar situations. I wrote about it in the previous post, as well as in another thread.


But to say that result defines the assessment of one's play, is ridiculous.
 
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rule72

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I'm playing a $100 freeze out and about 70 people played in the tournament and were down to about 15 people left SB 800 BB 1600. Started off with 10,000 chips and at about this time I was the chip leader in the tourney with over about 40,000 chips. Short stack out our table goes all in with A9 clubs, for 16,000, everyone else folds until the small blinds wakes up with pocket 10's and just calls, and then there's me in the BB with pocket kings. I end up going all in and the person in the small blind thinks about it and then eventually calls with about 20,000 left behind. I was really surprised he called and was very happy to see his 10's until he happens to bust me with the flop J-7-5-8-9 hitting runner runner for a straight. Did I do the right thing by shoving in that spot? Or should I have just called?
I agree with milencenov's reply and I have only one other thought to add.

My decision is only shove or call there is no folding. The decision in addition to the stack sizes is the player type and ranges he's playing. With a loose player having a wider range I'm good with the shove and tighter player I'm good to call. I'm mostly considering the player with the bigger stack since if I beat him I'm ahead even if I loose to the small stack.

This hand in particular might have ended the same with a call. If the A flops I'm likely done with the hand. With a flop of J-7-5 the TT might have shoved and I'd still call, but if he checked I'd put him all in and he's at least got to worry about the J or another over pair. After this flop KK doesn't fold in my hand, but it still looses to this turn and river card. Note no info about possible flush draw.

It pays to know your players.

This hand is simply a bad beat, KK vs TT, it won't be your last one just shake it off.
 
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MMarshall89

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I think just about 99% of people would of called there, maybe not of pushed all in pre flopped but either way I think the results would of been the same and it was just one of those hands you play or avoid. Poker software is crazy as hell as many hands people play we see all the variances. Not rare to see AA loose all in even against only one hand. Happen to me other day went all in with about 2k in chips pretty early in a tournament, a bigger stack with about 7k called my all with AQ and he hit 2 Queens on the flop and I was out...it's just how the software is made to make shit happen like that
 
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