Did i play myhand Too strong or just unlucky?

David_Lill · Jan 20, 2012

I'm nearly 21 ive been playing at casinos for 3 years now and i play a fair bit online, i do fairly well. i do better live than i do online.
So I entered this Live tournament hosted by NPPL.No rebuy, $20 buy in 2k guranteed, 10,000 starting stack and blinds start at 50/100, around 100 players or so. This is how the very first hand went.

I had dealer position, seat 3,4,5 all limp in for 100 so theres 6 players in including me with the blinds stil yet to act. I was holding Ad,Ks...I raise to get people out of the pot, i raise to 700...to my surprise SB calls,, BB calls, and seat 3,4 and 5 all call. This puts me in a real awquard situation to start of with. Flop comes Ac, 8s, Qh so theres no flush possibility and a gutshot draw possibility, and ive hit top pair with top kicker, they all check exept seat 5 bets 3,000.... I raise all in over the top every one folds, and seat 5 again to my surprise calls, and turns over Ad, 8h... I dont hit a Q or K so i'm out of the tournament. I think i played it correctly, Should i have raised more preflop? or should i just of called the flop? Did i play it to strong? suggestions?
Thanks guys.

flatcaller · Jan 20, 2012

Early in tournaments i recommend you stay away from all in pots with hands like top pair or even 2 pair in some cases. Since most players have 100+ BB early they will be more intent to play hands such as A8 or lower pp. The idea behind playing like this is you flop a set and get it all in against someones AK. In your example if i have any sc or pp ill flatcall you with intentions of flopping a huge made hand that will crack your pair especially if another player flats your bet as well. Deep in the tourney when I am more around 30-50BB i will be forced to fold these types of hand more frequently to your raise because they don't hit enough to justify implied odd. There is a lot more open play early because ppl can afford. Since it is early make it 1k-1.2k pre flop.

MediaBLITZ · Jan 20, 2012

Did you take any time to consider what the other guy might be betting with?
If you make a mistake in playing your hand, invariably it is going to result from your thought process and many times that is about what was missing there.
Generally speaking your preflop bet is pretty textbook, BUT I might have gone a little more but then again it's the first hand of a tourney - you usually want to ramp up - get a feel and maybe even avoid the wide range gamblers for a little (so this doesn't happen to you). No reads and no ideas what anyone is liable to do except that you know the players are going to be more screwy in the beginning than after second break.
After the flop - he's betting 3/4 of the pot - not an unreasonable bet (not like he shoved). You have to ask yourself what would he have called your PF raise with and how that might match up with the flop.
AA - slow playing - stupid on first hand, but yeah it could happen early
QQ - not likely - he has to raise with that or JJ
88 - yeah, someone might limp and then flat call a raise mining for trips.
AQ - same (but not a good play - would expect a raise)
suited Ax - oh yeah - that could happen early - did he hit 2 pair looking for a flush?
Then he has all kinds of range besides this...
The thing is, this early in a tournament, you can expect to see almost anything and have to protect yourself.
If he shoved after the flop I would have to wonder why he doesn't want me in the hand (well because there's over $4,000 in the pot) and would be inclined to consider calling that bluff - but instead he makes a teetering 3/4 pot bet that says he isn't going to be sad if I call.
What was the purpose of your shove? Did you want a call or did you want him to go away? Or was it just a reaction.
It looks like the hand the way you played it suffered from not having much of a plan and became reactionary to the situation.

spstevens · Jan 20, 2012

With so many in the pot you are in very dangerous waters without the nuts so many ways for TPTK to be dominated . Why did everybody call is a good question and although it didn't turn out to be one my first thought would be a set, and as you seem to have found out ace rag was just as costly . In my opinion it is just to risky a spot to stack off with TPTK. On an upnote I personally would rather have it happen early than near the bubble just so I can go about my evening.

dlam · Jan 21, 2012

I hate having AA AK and KK early in the MTT cause anything can happen. It might be counter intitive to playing cash games....but why not limp and see what happens ..limp -3 bet shove preflop or limp see the flop with bunch callers and prepared to win a little rather than lose a lot.

David_Lill · Jan 21, 2012

flatcaller said:
Early in tournaments i recommend you stay away from all in pots with hands like top pair or even 2 pair in some cases. Since most players have 100+ BB early they will be more intent to play hands such as A8 or lower pp. The idea behind playing like this is you flop a set and get it all in against someones AK. In your example if i have any sc or pp ill flatcall you with intentions of flopping a huge made hand that will crack your pair especially if another player flats your bet as well. Deep in the tourney when I am more around 30-50BB i will be forced to fold these types of hand more frequently to your raise because they don't hit enough to justify implied odd. There is a lot more open play early because ppl can afford. Since it is early make it 1k-1.2k pre flop.

Yea i totally agree, i think raising it a little more would have been my best choice, maybe even 1.5k wld even get a A, 8 folding for the first hand of the tourney. you explaining that because everybody has the chips more people are likely to call, makes alot of sense. thanks for this valuable infomation and ill take it into my next tourney.

David_Lill · Jan 21, 2012

MediaBLITZ said:
Did you take any time to consider what the other guy might be betting with?
If you make a mistake in playing your hand, invariably it is going to result from your thought process and many times that is about what was missing there.
Generally speaking your preflop bet is pretty textbook, BUT I might have gone a little more but then again it's the first hand of a tourney - you usually want to ramp up - get a feel and maybe even avoid the wide range gamblers for a little (so this doesn't happen to you). No reads and no ideas what anyone is liable to do except that you know the players are going to be more screwy in the beginning than after second break.
After the flop - he's betting 3/4 of the pot - not an unreasonable bet (not like he shoved). You have to ask yourself what would he have called your PF raise with and how that might match up with the flop.
AA - slow playing - stupid on first hand, but yeah it could happen early
QQ - not likely - he has to raise with that or JJ
88 - yeah, someone might limp and then flat call a raise mining for trips.
AQ - same (but not a good play - would expect a raise)
suited Ax - oh yeah - that could happen early - did he hit 2 pair looking for a flush?
Then he has all kinds of range besides this...
The thing is, this early in a tournament, you can expect to see almost anything and have to protect yourself.
If he shoved after the flop I would have to wonder why he doesn't want me in the hand (well because there's over $4,000 in the pot) and would be inclined to consider calling that bluff - but instead he makes a teetering 3/4 pot bet that says he isn't going to be sad if I call.
What was the purpose of your shove? Did you want a call or did you want him to go away? Or was it just a reaction.
It looks like the hand the way you played it suffered from not having much of a plan and became reactionary to the situation.

I did take time to consider what he could of had, the only 2 hands i put him on is A,Q or 8,8 i think all other possibilitys are just silly. since its the start i have no info, no reads on players and my re raise shove was to make him fold, its the very first hand most players will try to stay away from an all in very early, so i didnt really want him to call...
oh and there was no flush draw possability.

David_Lill · Jan 21, 2012

dlam said:
I hate having AA AK and KK early in the MTT cause anything can happen. It might be counter intitive to playing cash games....but why not limp and see what happens ..limp -3 bet shove preflop or limp see the flop with bunch callers and prepared to win a little rather than lose a lot.

i would rather fold my A, K early than limp in with 5 other players. limping is not an option, im just looking for trouble.

MediaBLITZ · Jan 21, 2012

David_Lill said:
I did take time to consider what he could of had, the only 2 hands i put him on is A,Q or 8,8 i think all other possibilitys are just silly. since its the start i have no info, no reads on players and my re raise shove was to make him fold, its the very first hand most players will try to stay away from an all in very early, so i didnt really want him to call...
oh and there was no flush draw possability.

If his preflop cards are suited then that's part of a flush draw for him. It is incredibly common for players to want to see a flop with a suited A, hoping that flush draw comes through. Next best is two pair.
Your ranging on him was waaaayyyyy to narrow - ESPECIALLY because "its the start i have no info, no reads on players".
So yes, you played it too strong and too aggressive, again "its the start i have no info, no reads on players".
Basic principle is do not make a monster pot if you don't have a monster hand.
TPTK is a mediocre and below average holding - remember that the next time it looks so pretty.

David_Lill · Jan 21, 2012

MediaBLITZ said:
If his preflop cards are suited then that's part of a flush draw for him. It is incredibly common for players to want to see a flop with a suited A, hoping that flush draw comes through. Next best is two pair.
Your ranging on him was waaaayyyyy to narrow - ESPECIALLY because "its the start i have no info, no reads on players".
So yes, you played it too strong and too aggressive, again "its the start i have no info, no reads on players".
Basic principle is do not make a monster pot if you don't have a monster hand.
TPTK is a mediocre and below average holding - remember that the next time it looks so pretty.

First of all his cards wernt suited so again no flush possability...I'm ranging too narrow? I'm gonna assume hes going to raise either before i do or re raise me pre flop if hes got A,A or Q,Q so there out, i dont think you call 700 for the very first hand with Q, 8...im pretty sure with 4 limpers before him that he would at least make a small raise if he had A,Q...limping with a stong hand with alot of limpers is a very bad idea. so pretty much he either had nothing, A,8 or 8,8. like you said 3/4 of the pot is a nice bet with an ace out there maybe he was looking to steal. i agree maybe i played it too strong, but there was only a few hands he could of actually of had that was going to beat me with, so 99 times out of 100 ill take my chances in that situation with TPTK. But hey maybe im just assuming that im playing with all good players, who actually know how to play poker.
I was looking for advice, take the first comment for example..."since every ones got chips there more likely to call a fair raise maybe make it 1k or 1.2 k raise next time"...thats actually very helpful.

Do you fold A,K (TPTK to a 3,000 raise? on the flop with A, 8, Q no flush possability) or do you just call the flop, then call his bet on the turn then call on the river and either way be kicked out?

dlam · Jan 21, 2012

i agree that AK can be trouble early in the tournament ......so I think it can be release postflop even if you think you have TPTK cause often you dont ....beaten by 2 pair , set, etc happen lots
Have disacpline to release it postflop or not play AK until the blind are high, that is when i see the real value of AK .

flatcaller · Jan 23, 2012

All raises early should be moe than 3x especially first level, probably 5x or more. So with AK make the standard raise of 5x and hope for heads up, if not heads up muck hand if lots of actions occurs on flop. ex blind 25/50 utg raise to 250, 3 callers, 4 way pot. flop A67. You lead out 700, call, fold re raise to 2400, actions back to you. I would easy fold here. Anyone could have set or two pair. Must figure still one guy to act he could have been flatting his set or simply on a draw and 3x raiser will most likely continue betting turn no matter what his hand so he can keep control of pot. If AK is good here everyone will fold to you most of the time, prob not going to run into someone making a play this early in a tourney. End note AK may see lots of ppl to flop in the early stages of tourney, don't over play but do not muck it pre!!! Just be prepared to fold it if lots of action arises.

1luckysob · Mar 8, 2012

shove preflop and limpers aren't calling

Karkus77 · Mar 8, 2012

i am not that good it seems, i would have gone broke as the OP did, so when the guy bets 3k on the flop, do you just fold? or do you call, then fold when he shoves turn ?

JDAWG5 · Mar 9, 2012

You played it well.

Guy called 7X the BB with A8 off pre-flop....don't worry

Reptar7 · Mar 17, 2012

JDAWG5 said:
You played it well.

Guy called 7X the BB with A8 off pre-flop....don't worry

True, that guy played terrible, but with so many people in and this guy deciding he wants to go all in after the flop, I'm just not sure. This is a spot where I think he either has air or junk and is bluffing trying to steal a huge pot, or he has it. I think he has it more often than not when he wants to put his whole tourney life (or half of it) on the line after the flop.

I think that bet by him on the flop was brilliant in it's sizing. He looks strong but it could be a bluff. He is gonna get a lot of AK, AJ, even AT hands to pay him.

I think what you did is fine, probably considered standard even. I might have just called and seen what he did next. I would consider folding, but it is just such a fishy spot I probably wouldn't. After the next card you get more info and might have a better feeling.

You really just got very unlucky and this guy with A8 is clearly not a good player.

Pascal-lf · Mar 23, 2012

what does shoving that flop achieve other than giving him a chance to fold AT/AJ?

kissapig · Mar 31, 2012

With a starting stack of 100 bb you had plenty of room to find out who you were playing against. When you've got 5 callers on a 7BB raise from all limpers on the first hand you should have realized the level of play you were up against. TPTK looks good but limit the amount of exposure to your stack and fold to the monster bet.

Poker Orifice · Mar 31, 2012

shove pre imo

DEdwardsNJ · Apr 1, 2012

Depends on the structure of the tournament. Some live low buy in tournaments move real fast and most of the people are out within 2 hours. In those cases I'm just never folding AK here as your probably only gonna see 50 or so hands over the 2 hours and you don't have time to sit around and wait for the nuts. If its a slower moving blind structure where you can actually get some play in and you think you have an edge over your opponents, then you obviously have to be able to get away from top pair on the flop in a 5 way pot early in the tournament when someone is looking to play for stacks.

Did i play myhand Too strong or just unlucky?

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