Did I make the right move?

M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
So today I had .27 cents on my full tilt account. The only thing I could play was the ten cent rebuy. I decided to give it a try since I had nothing better to do. I was doing pretty good, worked my way up to top 75 for most of the tourney.

When there was a little more then 160 left I was dealt AK. Blinds were at 800/1600 125 ante, and I had 25k. I raised 4 times the bb to 6400. The guy then re-raised me all in.

I called. Went up against 7-7 and lost. Placed at 160 where 153 get paid..

Would it have been better to wait just 2-3 hands longer(thats when the bubble burst), or was taking a chance for a deep run the right move there.

I mean you only get 1.50 for cashing (that's a lot to me ....haha), but the final table has good payouts.

I just feel so stupid for wasting 3 and half hours when if I would have just waited 2 minutes later I would have some real money to play with.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
HONESTLY I SEE WHY YOU DID WHAT YOU DID. IF IT WAS ME I PROB WOULD HAVE JUST CALLED IN THAT SITUATION POSSIBLY A SMALL RAISE MAYBE TWICE THE BB JUST BECAUSE THE BUBBLE WAS ABOUT TO BURST AND I WOULDNT WANT TO GO OUT KNOWING I WOULD PROBABLY MAKE IT FAR.

Please, no caps!

And to the OP, I think the prudent move would have been to wait. Bubble shoving ranges tend to be tight, and you were either in a race (obv) or had the guy dominated (best case scenario). But with your stack size, and bankroll, a fold would have been the better option at that point. In that tourney, (I was railing a friend so I got to see) after the bubble burst, 50 players busted in 10 minutes.

Now if you had more $ backing you, then that is an ok call, but with all things considered, wait it out next time. AK will come again.

GL on your next deep run BTW, just making the bubble in that donkfest is an accomplishment!
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Please, no caps!

And to the OP, I think the prudent move would have been to wait. Bubble shoving ranges tend to be tight, and you were either in a race (obv) or had the guy dominated (best case scenario). But with your stack size, and bankroll, a fold would have been the better option at that point. In that tourney, (I was railing a friend so I got to see) after the bubble burst, 50 players busted in 10 minutes.

Now if you had more $ backing you, then that is an ok call, but with all things considered, wait it out next time. AK will come again.

GL on your next deep run BTW, just making the bubble in that donkfest is an accomplishment!

Yea, I should have waited. After I was re-raised all in I looked at the players left and I'm like I should just fold, I'll be in the money in a hand or two. But, I thought I was in an opportunity to double up. Based off of the guys play prior to this hand, I put him on a solid hand, but I didn't think he had a monster there. I was ok going up against 7-7 there, but was hoping for A-10, A-J, or worse. AK was the only playable hand I saw for the last hour. I only kept my stack size around 25-30k by stealing blinds every so often.

Going into that tourney I knew it would be hard to make the money. I tried to take some chances early. I figured I'd be knocked out by sooner or later by someone going all in with K4, or something, but that never happened. Somehow, I found my self good position for a majority of the tourney, but one bad move cost me.

Maybe I'll try again today or tomorrow, but I doubt I'll make it that far again.
 
dino

dino

10 cevapcici = 0 stress
Community Guide
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Total posts
6,534
Awards
3
DE
Chips
247
I do agree with wait ITM, since you went so far and was so close to get some $$
I read somewhere on FT web site in poker academy it's ok and right play to fold even AA when on bubble, just to get ITM.
I know it's tough call, but when so close.... play more tight
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
While I don't like tightening up and just waiting it out while a bubble burst-especially if I can pick up a lot of extra pots and chips-I can see folding and playing it safe until the bubble burst being +EV. Especially if you don't have a BR backing you. My only problem is, it might form bad MTT habits of playing to tight on the bubble/with a short stack because you don't want to miss out on a min profit.

Personally, if I sitting at an M of ~7 and a short stack. I honestly would just shove here and hope to pick up the pot. And if I'm called I'm only dominated by 2 hands and flipping/slight edge over a tons of other hands. So, I'm more than happy to risk it there for a chance to double up. ...I have this 'Play to WIN, not play to MIN' approach, but everyone is different. I think if you were going to take the fold/wait approach, you'd have to really turn on the aggression once the bubble burst and open your range really wide. You made the money, but you're still short so now it's about taking risk and moving up the ladder.

My other concern is your bet sizing. There is absolutely no reason for you to be raising 4x the blind at this stage of an MTT. And especially if that raise is costing 25% of your stack. Drop your raise size to about 2.25-2.5x the BB. It's still just as effect as a 4x bet as far as picking up the pot and getting called by weaker hands. Also, if you do get shoved over the top, you can lay your hand if you need to and risk a lot less of your stack. Folding after putting in a 1/4th of your stack is pretty silly.
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
I read somewhere on FT web site in poker academy it's ok and right play to fold even AA when on bubble, just to get ITM.
I know it's tough call, but when so close.... play more tight
Where does it say that on the FTP Academy?

And I think loosening up during bubble play is a lot better than playing tight...

But again, everyone has different goals when they play so the approach/strategy will always be different.
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
While I don't like tightening up and just waiting it out while a bubble burst-especially if I can pick up a lot of extra pots and chips-I can see folding and playing it safe until the bubble burst being +EV. Especially if you don't have a BR backing you. My only problem is, it might form bad MTT habits of playing to tight on the bubble/with a short stack because you don't want to miss out on a min profit.

Personally, if I sitting at an M of ~7 and a short stack. I honestly would just shove here and hope to pick up the pot. And if I'm called I'm only dominated by 2 hands and flipping/slight edge over a tons of other hands. So, I'm more than happy to risk it there for a chance to double up. ...I have this 'Play to WIN, not play to MIN' approach, but everyone is different. I think if you were going to take the fold/wait approach, you'd have to really turn on the aggression once the bubble burst and open your range really wide. You made the money, but you're still short so now it's about taking risk and moving up the ladder.

My other concern is your bet sizing. There is absolutely no reason for you to be raising 4x the blind at this stage of an MTT. And especially if that raise is costing 25% of your stack. Drop your raise size to about 2.25-2.5x the BB. It's still just as effect as a 4x bet as far as picking up the pot and getting called by weaker hands. Also, if you do get shoved over the top, you can lay your hand if you need to and risk a lot less of your stack. Folding after putting in a 1/4th of your stack is pretty silly.


Good advice. I raised to 4 because there were two big stacks at my table (over 100k) that would call anything unless you raised a good amount. This way I would have a chance to take it down pre-flop, but also isolate to one other player. I see why it would have made more sense to have raised less, but I didn't want to be in a situation where 4 people saw the flop.
 
suit2please

suit2please

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Total posts
832
Chips
0
I do agree with wait ITM, since you went so far and was so close to get some $$
I read somewhere on FT web site in poker academy it's ok and right play to fold even AA when on bubble, just to get ITM.
I know it's tough call, but when so close.... play more tight

Im guessing he saw this somewhere, but they were actually talking about the bubble of a satellite or DoN type game where the payout is flat. I don't believe there is anyway anyone would ever tell you to fold Aces preflop otherwise.
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
Good advice. I raised to 4 because there were two big stacks at my table (over 100k) that would call anything unless you raised a good amount. This way I would have a chance to take it down pre-flop, but also isolate to one other player. I see why it would have made more sense to have raised less, but I didn't want to be in a situation where 4 people saw the flop.
Having multiple players see a flop isn't that bad actually. If you hit the flop strong, say 2 pair or TP with flush draw, you can get paid off on your big hands with multiple opponents. And if you completely miss, you fold and give up a small amount of your stack. If you're 3-bet preflop, you can opt to fold and give up the minimum as well.

As for the big stacks calling with anything, don't worry about that. Again, if you're putting in 25% of your chips and a big stack shoves, folding is almost always wrong. If you raise a bit less and they're calling wide, then you're crushing their range. You can either pick up a nice pot off them if they over value their hand or fold and lose minimum.

Try not to think of PFR's as you wanting to protect your big hand from losing, but as a way to extract max value for your big hands. It's risk vs reward.
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Having multiple players see a flop isn't that bad actually. If you hit the flop strong, say 2 pair or TP with flush draw, you can get paid off on your big hands with multiple opponents. And if you completely miss, you fold and give up a small amount of your stack. If you're 3-bet preflop, you can opt to fold and give up the minimum as well.

As for the big stacks calling with anything, don't worry about that. Again, if you're putting in 25% of your chips and a big stack shoves, folding is almost always wrong. If you raise a bit less and they're calling wide, then you're crushing their range. You can either pick up a nice pot off them if they over value their hand or fold and lose minimum.

Try not to think of PFR's as you wanting to protect your big hand from losing, but as a way to extract max value for your big hands. It's risk vs reward.

Ok, I understand now. Thanks for the help.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
Philthy makes some excellent points about bet sizing. %25 is way too mch of your stack to raise p/f in that spot and then folding. But I still stand by my fold suggestion. Yes that was a good spot to double up, and trying to limp into a mincash is generally -EV. BUT, when you only have .27c in your BR to start, any cash is a good cash at that point. Cash first, win later.

Last night I was nearing the bubble of the $2 rebuy with an m of 4 or so, waited it out, then went on to the final table. I was going to take an aggressive approach on the bubble, but I noticed that I was still ahead of 15 players at that point. M matters, but if I am still ahead of many players on the bubble, I feel I still have time to wait a few hands. But I never made the mistake of raising/folding, if I raised it was my whole stack at that point. Less tricky decisions to make.
 
Last edited:
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Decided to play again today.. Going good so far.


This was great. Everybody was so happy to have a flush,,, but mine was better... haha







 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Wow.

Currently 3rd... Still a long way to go. 550 left.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
You have a massive stack, kick some ass and TID matt!
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Made some bad moves. Couldn't get away from JJ on a bad flop for some reason. Still ITM, but my stack is steadily going down, not up.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
You still have an above average stack with 110 players till the bubble. No worries.

And as you can see, players are stacking off with ace high. They're droppin fast.
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Survived the bubble this time. Time to take some chances.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
Congrats! Now show them fish how it's done.
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Maybe I'll be able to combo this cash with one in the 500k freeroll (4th out of 62) to get a small bankroll going.


...Went out 114th.. At least I cashed.
 
Last edited:
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
Good run matt! I dunno if i would have mde that shove over that raise, but all in all, you did great!
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Good run matt! I dunno if i would have mde that shove over that raise, but all in all, you did great!

Yea I was getting tired of waiting. Blinds were killing me. I was hoping for some live cards, but they weren't there.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
It's all good. U got your cash, which is a very nice boost to your BR.
And you're doing great in the 500K freeroll. Keep up the good work bud.
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
It's all good. U got your cash, which is a very nice boost to your BR.
And you're doing great in the 500K freeroll. Keep up the good work bud.

Thanks. If I can cash in the freeroll I'll have a whopping $3.50 to work with lol, but at least it's real cash.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Total posts
5,266
Awards
8
CA
Chips
832
Uh, you do realize that K10 is not really a shovable hand? lol

Congrats on another cash though.
 
M

matt0216

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Uh, you do realize that K10 is not really a shovable hand? lol

Congrats on another cash though.

Lol, it was for me. After seeing Q2o, j4 and so on K10 was a monster. I didn't really care though. I needed a miracle to make any more money from that tourney. The payouts don't go up until you make it a lot further.

Now I get to play with $3.63 in real money, so I'm all good.
 
Top