Did I make a mistake in this spot?

Socialpro29

Socialpro29

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Total posts
114
Chips
0
ignition $5.50 $1000 GTD

Down to 14 players

Blinds @ 1500/2500 about to jump to 2000/3000 next orbit

Hero 39500 Button
Villan 148000 SB

Rest of table was anywhere from 10-15 BB also with exception of 1 other player who was at approx. 122000

On the button I was dealt AdTd it folded to me so I open jammed trying to steal blinds an had a strong hand to double up if called. The SB snap calls and turns over KK. I did not hit an A, i did hit a T but wasnt enough. Is open shoving here in this spot with 15 BB and 14 left a mistake? Would I be better to min raise here and when SB 3B's me I have a chance to get away? Should I just chalk this up as the luck factor and it was a correct move as played. I mean there is only like a 5% chance or less the SB or BB have a stronger hand then me here and I am typically way ahead with this hand in this spot.

Let me know what you all think!
 
J

JPainTrainSicko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
445
Awards
1
Chips
1
Fine play, jamming 15 bb or less with that hands from late position in an unopened pot late in a tournament to accumulate blinds and antes is a great for stack preservation.

There is however a theory that suggests that becouse the rest of the table folded, what should be weaker hands, then a concentration of better hands is left with the players still holding cards. Not that this should change your play in this spot, just something to think about.
 
Tech101205

Tech101205

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Total posts
648
Awards
1
Chips
45
Hmm
I would Say It would be better to raise rather than Shoving with 15 bbs
If got Reraised we can fold because there are other players with similar stacks compared to u ,
gambling here with A10s would be risky as we might be missing possible payout jump
At the same time i cannot say that your shove is bad as you had Position With an decent equity hand to steal
but you see it happens , unfortunate to run into KK
but not a bad move
 
S

sillymunchie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Total posts
618
Chips
0
if you open raise / fold at 15bb then your bleeding money, if your going to play this hand sometimes you have to hope the blinds dont have a hand to call you with, you made a play with what as you said had great showdown value, but you also know if your called your probably beat,

also think about villain, he has 5bb so if you raised to 2bb are you really folding a 3bb reraise, your opponent is prety much already out of the tournament, he needs to throw all his chips in and soon. so he will be calling you down with any Ax (unless you have noted he is still sitting tight hoping to ladder up, in which case im stealing everytime i get the chance lol)
 
NCDaddy

NCDaddy

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Total posts
709
Chips
0
I totally get why you did what you did and don't fault it.

I lean towards Tech101205's. If you take the alternative play and do a raise of 3 xbb and you get re-popped you can fold.

That being said however....if you do go that route with the intention to call a re-raise rather than fold it, you might as well shove it to begin with and hope to just steal the blinds.

For me, alot would depend on that player's image.
 
mcgregor_415

mcgregor_415

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Total posts
394
Awards
4
Chips
0
Very tough situation. But you are in a loosing position with KK. The only think is to limit the damage if it is possible.
Maybe 3BB raze is better, because it will be possible called by the big stack guy, if he don't have such a monster. A reraze is logical or maybe even to put himself in an all in in order to impress you that he could be stealing your raze bet.

Maybe here the question is which is better for you (if he don't have KK) - to steal the blinds or with such a nice hand to try to enroll the big stack guy in some play where you may check your chances after the flop and to save yourself for one more shot or to take some chips from him.
 
S

sillymunchie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Total posts
618
Chips
0
Very tough situation. But you are in a loosing position with KK. The only think is to limit the damage if it is possible.
Maybe 3BB raze is better, because it will be possible called by the big stack guy, if he don't have such a monster. A reraze is logical or maybe even to put himself in an all in in order to impress you that he could be stealing your raze bet.

Maybe here the question is which is better for you (if he don't have KK) - to steal the blinds or with such a nice hand to try to enroll the big stack guy in some play where you may check your chances after the flop and to save yourself for one more shot or to take some chips from him.

3bb raises on this type of board is all in, there is no way your putting a 3x bet in the middle and folding, if your going to fold then your going to fold before the flop, he literally just about has enough equity to raise 3x once and fold and if he does then he will be left with 10bb
however given the way the hand played out if he raises 3BB, the vilain still only has 5bb and your not going to be able to fold, so the same out come
if the BB calls with KK thats unlucky, but to win a tournament its about taking the gambles at the right time, and A 10 from the button is as good as anytime to take a gamble.
the minimal he could do is a 2Bb bet, at this stage of the tourney its all you need to get the info, and if he had done that then the short stack would have put him all in and he cant fold, but to make the moves you are suggesting would require no less then 18-20bb
 
Jim Brown

Jim Brown

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Total posts
128
Chips
0
100% standard, unlucky

You only have the hand you have, but in this spot you should be shoving really wide when folded to your button, probably at least 33% of hands and maybe up to 66% depending on how loose the players behind you are. If they're calling loose you have to tighten up and vice-versa. It's pretty much impossible for ATs to be a losing shove here on average.

ICMIzer Nash Equilibrium BTN shove
31% 22+,A2s+,A3o+,K5s+KTo+,Q7s+,QTo+J8s+,JTo,T8s+,98s
SB call
11% 55+,A8s+,A9o+KQs

If SB is calling any 2 then ATs is the best hand you should be folding, breaking even on equity. shove range v calling range any 2: 77+,AJs+,AKo

Edit: bet/fold is out of the question under ~20bb especially if you're going to use 3x sizing, but even a minraise you can't fold anything you're opening at this depth

-- and villain has 50bb, not 5 like a few posts have said
 
Last edited:
S

sillymunchie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Total posts
618
Chips
0
100% standard, unlucky

You only have the hand you have, but in this spot you should be shoving really wide when folded to your button, probably at least 33% of hands and maybe up to 66% depending on how loose the players behind you are. If they're calling loose you have to tighten up and vice-versa. It's pretty much impossible for ATs to be a losing shove here on average.

ICMIzer Nash Equilibrium BTN shove
31% 22+,A2s+,A3o+,K5s+KTo+,Q7s+,QTo+J8s+,JTo,T8s+,98s
SB call
11% 55+,A8s+,A9o+KQs

If SB is calling any 2 then ATs is the best hand you should be folding, breaking even on equity. shove range v calling range any 2: 77+,AJs+,AKo

Edit: bet/fold is out of the question under ~20bb especially if you're going to use 3x sizing, but even a minraise you can't fold anything you're opening at this depth

-- and villain has 50bb, not 5 like a few posts have said

LMAO
OMG, thank you for clarrifying everything i was saying in this comment, and thank you even more for pointing out my silly mistake xD
i said 5bb cus i misread the figure and took off a 0 LMAO
so now we realize he has 50bb then i think it gives us even more potential to shove him here, because this guy has half his stack to risk, but if you win your A 10 hand against him your doubling up (that being said your still hoping for it to be taken uncontested)
 
C

chng1t

Enthusiast
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Total posts
49
Awards
1
Chips
0
Shove is perfect as you will mostly get called by worse. You opponent had KK, that's poker, get over it. believe me, you will not see king's that often. GL
 
fly2tsky

fly2tsky

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Total posts
183
Chips
0
you can fold everything except the nuts. And having a backup plan is surely fine. In my opinion I would not go all in here betting like 1/4 my stack.
 
S

sillymunchie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Total posts
618
Chips
0
you can fold everything except the nuts. And having a backup plan is surely fine. In my opinion I would not go all in here betting like 1/4 my stack.

im really confused here, are you saying he should bet like 1/4 of his stack and call the all in?
bet quarter of his stack and fold to all in shove?

im not sure what your trying to say, but either way his blinds are about to go up, he will have 10bb left at the moment they do go up, and he has A 10 it should be a simple push or fold, there is no more post flop play with stacks this low
 
C

chronical

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Total posts
1,128
Awards
1
Chips
1
personal exp. jamming atnyhing JJ+ PRF is bad. (even if you want math added you are hoping for a coint flip ~50-48% agains ANY PAIR).
as far as steraling goes, everything depends on your table image, but I dont thin that anyone would fold KK there
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
The jam is completely fine.

You ran into a big hand and lost. It happens, no biggie.
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
personal exp. jamming atnyhing JJ+ PRF is bad. (even if you want math added you are hoping for a coint flip ~50-48% agains ANY PAIR).
How is it bad when you're jamming a short stack? You don't have a stack for post flop play and jamming allows you max value for your hand. Also, as a short stack, you should be happy to get in a 50/50 situation. Not to mention that your added math is wrong saying A10 vs any pair is 50/50. It's only 50/50 vs 22-99 and has less equity 1010+.

Again, getting it in a 50/50 spot is not that bad when you are short stacked, but there also a lot of hands BB could call with where we have a better equity. A2s-A9s is possible, as are all broadway combinations not including an A. Such as KJ, JQ, J10, etc. If we gave the opponent a fairly tight range of 15.6% (22-AA, all suited/unsuited broadway hands, A8s+) we still have a slight edge at 51%.
 
joker131

joker131

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Total posts
706
Chips
0
well I would shove to steel the blinds, theres no way thev call unless as it happened KK was in the blinds. u don't win unless u boss the table.
 
antonis32123

antonis32123

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Total posts
6,362
Awards
20
GR
Chips
249
I guess it's a good position to steal the blinds and the only way to do it is by shoving to scare the villains , you had 15bb , very soon that would be 12bb , you don't know if you would have another chance like this or better . To raise or fold on this spot I guess it might not be a good idea for these reasons cause you are blind bleeding and you need chips . I used to fold same cards same spots in the past , losing many blinds and at the end when I had a good hand I only had 2 or 3,4 blinds to shove and ofcourse I would have been called by many and lose . I think you played it very well , you were just unlucky .
 
W

WillinNewHaven

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Total posts
20
Chips
0
Very normal shove. Your error was getting unlucky.
 
luiaguila

luiaguila

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Total posts
332
Chips
0
I think that it is necessary to be aggressive but taking into account that it has few blinds so it seems to me well although if you had not wanted to take risk you make a call and ready before any rare thing retire
 
Mitchel Roebuck

Mitchel Roebuck

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 21, 2016
Total posts
47
Chips
0
I would just call that poker, folding from the start would be the only way out but but you were in situation to make the play and you played that right, no matter what he was going to play that hand.
 
PHX

PHX

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Total posts
7,127
Awards
16
TT
Chips
68
In a vacuum it is a standard shove you just got unlucky. Pay jumps with some small/micro stacks in the tournament could make this not a shove and a fold. Also if the blinds are super tight you can make a case that you will not get called by worse in which case you can min raise and accomplish the same thing you wanted with a shove i.e. steal the blinds.
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
I agree with you were just unlucky.

Unless, you are live and can get a read on the guy I don't see how else you should have played this. Even doing a 3x Bet what is the likely hood you are going to leave the hand, If he re-raises? If you put in a small raise to see if he folds and instead he pushes are you really likely to fold suited A10?

Just my opinion but I think you were spot on. Rough outcome for sure though
 
fly2tsky

fly2tsky

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Total posts
183
Chips
0
im really confused here, are you saying he should bet like 1/4 of his stack and call the all in?
bet quarter of his stack and fold to all in shove?

im not sure what your trying to say, but either way his blinds are about to go up, he will have 10bb left at the moment they do go up, and he has A 10 it should be a simple push or fold, there is no more post flop play with stacks this low

Indeed. I just want to tell him not to risk his whole stack in one move. When you have to make 2 actions instead of 1, you would rethink about it.

He wants to steal the pot, thats the thing. Im not gonna throw my everything in to just steal the pot. Have you seen a short stack bet but not allin in that situation? thats would be a huge surprise to your opponents.
 
Last edited:
deucefactory

deucefactory

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Total posts
51
Awards
1
Chips
33
keep jamming bro, nothing wrong with that play at all
 
Top