Did I make a mistake?

Karozi615

Karozi615

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Total posts
517
Chips
0
I had 27k behind and the blinds were 2k/4k very late in a live MTT. The table was 7 handed and I open shoved J8 suited on the button when it was folded to me. I was called and unfortunately shown AJ. I had 6.75 BB's however, so at the time I felt like this was pretty standard. Obviously I can't raise/call there so is this appropriate or do I just fold and look for a better spot? I had no info on either of the players next to me
 
horizon12

horizon12

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Total posts
4,126
Chips
0
How much stack have blinds , if very deep i think better fold, if 10-20 bb better shove this hand , i can say this be profitable stealing...
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
10BB and below is a danger zone. So stealing is good here. The big blind will somehow think, if he has not so strong hand like KQ, QJ etc to call since he would add 23K if he calls and that is still substantial amount compared to the BB amount. You were just unlucky he got Ace,x on his hand and persuade him to call because of the Ace.
 
J

jj20002

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
777
Chips
0
I had shoved too if i were you, i mean you had only 6 BB and everybody folded to you and it was a great possibility that the both players left folded too if not, then still you could be in a flip against a wide range of hands like lower pairs, T9, T-8, 9-8, or including against Ax or Kx still had a good chance so just that spot you didn´t have enough luck that time but still i think it was a standard play
 
psychotie

psychotie

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Total posts
324
Chips
0
Why risking with a small stack ur tournamernt ? Better to wait for a good hand and shove than. A relatively small stack like urs is called by bigstacks with even medium Hands .
Gl on and off the felts
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
I'd like to know the stack sizes of the blinds, where we are at in the pay structure (bubble, in the money etc.) and the recent history....like if you've shoved a few times in the last couple orbits....

BUT....barring some unusual circumstances I think this is an easy shove.

Usually, you're going to win the blinds which is a good outcome. When you get called you'll be at risk but usually with 40-60% equity which is acceptable.

Basically, in this instance the worst case scenario happened where you got called and were dominated. Think about it from the BB's perspective...if they had QJ or JT they would probably fold to such a big raise....

Well played...it just didn't work out this time
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
barring some unusual circumstances I think this is an easy shove.
Absolutely. While it's possible to conjure up scenarios where folding would be preferable, in the large majority of situations, you should insta-shove. Most people don't call shoves as wide as they should mathematically, which works in your favor.
 
hobonc

hobonc

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2010
Total posts
854
Chips
0
I would have shoved also. Its not a given that you'd have gotten any better cards in the next 5 hands. When the BB hits you again you are really SS'd. Not a bad play, it just didn't work out.
 
DaBrowner

DaBrowner

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Total posts
65
Chips
0
I would have shoved also, less than 10bb's. But I would have been looking for a good spot to shove around 10-15 bb's. I don't like to get that short because there is not any reason for blinds to fold small calls.
 
trolaAa

trolaAa

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Total posts
274
Chips
0
I also think you're not wrong with your game but still u should not have let you stay with so little money. You should not have to wait so much.
 
Karozi615

Karozi615

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Total posts
517
Chips
0
Well, Initially I had 38k but the previous orbit the shortest stack in the tournament, (11k?) open shoved with K9, and because I knew I was ahead of their range I called with 55. I lost the flip but I correctly deduced that I was ahead, winning would have given me approximately 50k. The average stack size was probably about 75k. There were 15 players left and the top 6 spots paid. 6th place was 241$ and 1st was about 1600$. I know that these tournaments almost ALWAYS chop 10 spots, but I was only in for $30.00 and I felt like I put myself in spots to be successful. But Dabrowner to answer your question, I was put in that interesting spot against an even shorter stack and that is why I wasn't able to maintain a 10-15 BB stack.
 
Karozi615

Karozi615

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Total posts
517
Chips
0
I also think you're not wrong with your game but still u should not have let you stay with so little money. You should not have to wait so much.
If I had a choice I would just get AA every hand and never be a short stack and win every tournament. I had 50 opportunities to go home early but I was patient, as I always am. I correctly folded JJ on a 9 6 5 board and aside from that hand didn't get one big pocket pair the entire tournament. I was just grinding it out and trying to find ONE spot to double up. As it turned out, I was wittled down to just 6.75 Big blinds because of these circumstances. On the hand I was eliminated I made a marginal decision that I thought was BARELY +ev, and I was asking folks on this site for their opinions.
 
S

sillymunchie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Total posts
618
Chips
0
hmmmm interesting time to race, its not a bad call, but just remember the main rule of thumb, you need a better hand to call a shove then you do to make a shove, so yes you was ahead of his range, but not by much, it was a big risk to take when you had a stack size that you could use, as it was you chose to race and lost this time, and you lost 1/3rd of your stack,

i personally depending on the blind level at the time could of possibly let go of 5 5 and waited for a better spot which would protect your equity in your tournament and reduced the need to steal with 6BB.

The main issue once you get to 6BB is its usually not a hard hit, and people are going to call light usually because they will nearly always have the correct odds to make the call regardless of what they hold

once your down to 6BB yes you no longer have reason to wait for a better spot, because waiting for a better hand if it takes 2 orbits you have lost half your chips and are doubling up to get back to where you are now, so might aswell take a risk and try and double up now, which in turn if you win the hand people will note that you have shoved wide, and so will call your shoves lighter as long as they dont pick up that you have changed gear already
 
A

aznman08

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Total posts
357
Chips
0
Why risking with a small stack ur tournamernt ? Better to wait for a good hand and shove than. A relatively small stack like urs is called by bigstacks with even medium Hands .
Gl on and off the felts

We're down to under 7BB in a 7 handed table, good hands aren't going to come so often and our effective M is smaller due to being short handed. Its pretty dependent on how are players/stack sizes in the blinds.

Also with the 55 vs K9 scenario, we are committing 11k out of our 38k stack (about 25% stack). Course this is position dependent but remember (assuming still 2k/4k) we have 9.5BB where a win gets us to 12.5BB and a loss to 6.5BB
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
Well, Initially I had 38k but the previous orbit the shortest stack in the tournament, (11k?) open shoved with K9, and because I knew I was ahead of their range I called with 55. I lost the flip but I correctly deduced that I was ahead, winning would have given me approximately 50k.
You were ahead of his actual hand, but more important than that is whether you were ahead of his range.

It seems reasonable to think your odds were somewhere around 50/50. That brings up the question of whether winning and losing 11k were equally valuable in terms of tournament equity. In this respect, chips you win are generally worth less than chips you lose, which suggests you may have wanted somewhat better odds than 50/50.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
I correctly folded JJ on a 9 6 5 board and aside from that hand didn't get one big pocket pair the entire tournament.
Again, the important question here is whether folding was correct against the opponent's range, not his actual hand.
 
L

llTsunamill

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Can someone pass that MTT quiz fpr me? I give you my pokerschool id and pass.. add me on skype MILOSTSUNAMI
Please i need that 3,3 $ ticket.. I am without money last days..
King regards
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
I'm also thinking I would have folded the 55 vs. K9 hand. I totally agree with arjonus, against his ENTIRE RANGE you are barely 50/50 and there are better spots.

However, the J8 shove one button....standard spot to shove. no problems with that move.
 
D

daramvid

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Total posts
9
Chips
0
standard shove vs 10-20 BB in the blinds. With no information, I am on the button (are there antes?) I would wait for a better spot as we have 8 more hands for a move.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
standard shove IMO. Esp with stack size and dead money + fold equity.
 
Karozi615

Karozi615

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Total posts
517
Chips
0
You were ahead of his actual hand, but more important than that is whether you were ahead of his range.

It seems reasonable to think your odds were somewhere around 50/50. That brings up the question of whether winning and losing 11k were equally valuable in terms of tournament equity. In this respect, chips you win are generally worth less than chips you lose, which suggests you may have wanted somewhat better odds than 50/50.

this make a lot of sense to me. I didn't play for 6 hours like a nit and grind my way up from a 3k stack to 33k just to flip with a pair of 5's against a short stack who has two overs. I was 4 spots from the final table. If I just execute patience and find ONE good spot im cashing and make a couple hundred
 
Top