Was I just colluded? :<

Something odd happened, the whole final table was strange between these two players, they would raise others and push people out of pots then check down all the way to the river. I really noticed something when I got three handed with them.

They was both from Belarus so that might be the reason I thought it more but when I busted my hand after shoving my chips and basically the bigger stack just "calling" here hoping to get heads up with the other guy.,

There was a few hands prior to the eventual bust out where they often check down each other..don't think I ever saw them raise each other.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.5 Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds 75 Ante (3 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t6152)
Button (t15038)
Hero (SB) (t5810)

Hero's M: 2.87

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , K
Button bets t2520, Hero raises to t5735 (All-In), BB raises to t6077 (All-In), Button calls t3557

Flop: (t18114) 9 , A , 8 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t18114) 10 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t18114) 4 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t18114

Results:
Button had 6 , K (high card, Ace).
Hero had Q , K (high card, Ace).
BB had 9 , A (two pair, Aces and nines).
Outcome: BB won t18114

Now, maybe we can forgive that a little even though it looked a bit odd. The hand before this one by the way, they called my raise and both called/checked down with each other when I was all-in and i managed to double up.


I then watched the heads up match between them, it last a whole...one hand...with some very marginal hands to say the least.

You think I should report this? Please bear in mind it has nothing to do wtih the crappy money, I couldn't are less, I just want a nice game.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.5 Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds 75 Ante (2 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t18114)
BB (t8886)

Preflop:
SB bets t18039 (All-In), BB calls t7611 (All-In)

Flop: (t17772) 7 , 2 , 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t17772) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t17772) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t17772

Results:
SB had J , 7 (two pair, sevens and twos).
BB had 7 , 3 (two pair, sevens and twos).
Outcome: SB won t17772


This final hand kind of really made me believe something was untoward....wtf is that? Thats not a normal shove/call, first hand in is it?..Sure he's short buy hfm...really?

Am I reading to much in to it or does that look strange a little?

I think the hand you busted on is pretty standard but the last hand and the fact that they're both from Belarus would make me suspicious enough to report it. Stars can take a look and see for themselves.

You might also take a look at SS to see how often these 2 play together.

I dont see how these two hands have anything to do with collution.
On the contrary.
If they were colluding, then the action on that first hand would go: fold, push, call
And not as now: raise, push, re-push, call.

And for the second hand, calling with 73o in that spot is a bit loose, but nothing out of the ordinary.

From my POV they were anything but colluding.

Well first point I would make in their favour would be if they were colluding the bigger stack mgiht dump to the shorter stack so they both have decent stack and can take a hit without risking busting. Also I'd search them to check if they were playing same games. If they were I'd report them to pokerstars although I wouldn't expect them to take it seriously as they probably get random micro stakes players complaining all the time. Perhaps better option would be to report to a pokerstars rep on here if you genuinely suspect collusion.

Definitely something suspicious about last hand though, although I have had people snap call me with random crap HU.

Also I don't think 1st hand is collusion, if it is it would be horribly done. Also how many entrants in this game? I thikn it would be very hard to collude in anything more than 9 man, even then you have to make sure you get sat on same tables as them.

only_bridge said:

I dont see how these two hands have anything to do with collution.
On the contrary.
If they were colluding, then the action on that first hand would go: fold, push, call
And not as now: raise, push, re-push, call.

From my POV they were anything but colluding.

Click to expand...

Well, there was other hands that was weird that happened and I just thought nothing of it really, only when it got to three handed I thought of everything and thouight "hmm"

That's why I'm asking opinions, what people think.

Well, he opens up, I shoved K,Q, big stack re-shoves, obviously SS is calling. I'm intrigued as to how it might of happened if I folded, I'm guessing Big stack might of. Obviously 3 all-ins less likely my hand is going to hold. Also bear in mind, the hand before the same thing happened and I was all-in with 3k chips, they both just checked down (which is standard I know) one turned over A,x, 6,7 the other and I rivered a two pair.

As for the last hand, if you think that is a standard call even when short stacked, then not sure what I'm missing. Never in a million years are people calling 7,x . Considering I busted one hand prior and it was insta shove first hand and insta call, it made me wonder thats all.

BlueNowhere said:

Well first point I would make in their favour would be if they were colluding the bigger stack mgiht dump to the shorter stack so they both have decent stack and can take a hit without risking busting. Also I'd search them to check if they were playing same games. If they were I'd report them to pokerstars although I wouldn't expect them to take it seriously as they probably get random micro stakes players complaining all the time. Perhaps better option would be to report to a pokerstars rep on here if you genuinely suspect collusion.

Definitely something suspicious about last hand though, although I have had people snap call me with random crap HU.

Also I don't think 1st hand is collusion, if it is it would be horribly done. Also how many entrants in this game? I thikn it would be very hard to collude in anything more than 9 man, even then you have to make sure you get sat on same tables as them.

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I guess both hands wont smell fishy to most people but when you think it at the start of the FT and just even "think" something odd about their play together then those 2 hands arise you instantly think something odd.

I'v seen some awful calls myself, but it's just the way it happened, literally first hand after I busted, all-in insta call and all-over.

Yea I do agree it looks suspicious but I've got HU against a player in a 6-max game and 1st hand he snap calls my shove with 23o after being nitty until we were 2 handed, if anyone was watching I could imagine they thought wtf. Did you search them?

IMO, no need to do the leg work in searching them and such. Just send Stars the tournament ID and those hands and the names, they will look into it. If there's nothing to it, Stars will know and if there is they will take the appropriate action. Nothing lost if they weren't colluding, that's what security is there for.

I did decide to report it in the end and pokerstars have replied in saying I have been awarded with 1st place.

They didn't directly say they colluded and have said they are allowed to continue playing at their site, as nothing was malicious but they did "soft play" each other.


Hello Benjamin,

Thank you once more for your report and apologies if there was
any delay in bringing this case to a close. This particular case
was quite involved and more time than usual was required for a
proper review.

Our review of '1grach1' and 'RAZVODchik' is now complete. We
confirmed a relationship and found that they did go easy on one
another (known as soft play) on occasion. This is a violation of
our tournament rule #20 as posted at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tournaments/rules/



We have the advantage of being able to replay the games with all
cards exposed. We carefully reviewed all events in which at least
one of the two finished in the money. As a result of our
findings, players who were likely harmed by the unfair play have
been advanced and have received credits consistent with their new
finish position at the expense of the colluders.

You advanced from 3rd to 1st in T#509493707. Your account has
been credited $4.66 to reflect your new finish position.

It is not uncommon to find that players are not aware of the
seriousness of such action in tournament play. The overall
review, which included requests for explanations from the players
and consideration of all account information, led us to conclude
that their action was not malicious. Therefore they will be
allowed to continue playing on the site. That said, we did take
action to see that they do not play in the same Sit & Go
Tournaments in the future, or at the same cash game table for
that matter.

The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount
importance to us and we will not abide unfair play in our games.
We work hard to police our games to assure our players of a fair,
secure place to play. In the rare cases where collusion has
actually occurred, we make sure that any players affected are
compensated appropriately.Your vigilance in noticing the
situation and reporting your concerns are appreciated. Please do
not hesitate to let us know anytime you have questions or
concerns.

Regards,

Kiel
PokerStars Game Security Team




Obviously I believe when pokerstars says nothing was intentional to a degree, where they would want to try collude for small amounts of money, but as I thought during the whole final table, they didn't play back at each other and that's what made me think otherwise.

Anyway good result.

only_bridge said:

And for the second hand, calling with 73o in that spot is a bit loose, but nothing out of the ordinary.

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lol calling 73o there is really terrible and no one with a brain would do it

good work stars tho!

Glad to hear they sorted it out for ya Ram. Wonder how much $ was taken off them players in total. They mustn't have been at it too much if they're still allowed to play.

Pascal-lf said:

good work stars tho!

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Yeah stars security is good!

BluffYou123 said:

Glad to hear they sorted it out for ya Ram. Wonder how much $ was taken off them players in total. They mustn't have been at it too much if they're still allowed to play.

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I'm not sure but I imagine they have forfeited both their monies for that game and everyone has been moved up.

I believe pokerstars when they say that nothing was untoward, it's not like they play many games, besides which who is really going to try collude for money at the micros? Kind of sad. Most likely as they say, are related and played a few games together and wouldn't play vs each other in pots, if someone was all-in.

As they said "soft play" was what was happening, which in a way is the same but I don't think they was going out of their ways to try deceive people and aim to take their money.

Pascal-lf said:

lol calling 73o there is really terrible and no one with a brain would do it

good work stars tho!

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Joe Hashem's hand I believe........

The important thing here is that Stars did this in a micro stakes game. Didn't take huge buy-ins to get the job done.
Kudo's Stars...yet again...

Incomplete Lyric's by Buffalo Springfield

Edits by me

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take your money away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
........

Report it. Stars can look over the entire hand histories and get them banned or whatever. The fact that they are both from Belarus is enough to conclude that there is some collusion happening. Did they chat to each other at any point?

Also above ^^ +1

Isn't 'soft play' colluding then ?

soft play is a type of collusion

Pascal-lf said:

lol calling 73o there is really terrible and no one with a brain would do it

good work stars tho!

Click to expand...

Just cause its terrible doesnt mean that people dont do it.

And to this thread, I think its terrible advice to report someone just on a hunch.
At least check if they usually are in the same games.
Collution is serious stuff, and nothing to be taking lightly. (pretty much like that letter sais)

only_bridge said:

Just cause its terrible doesnt mean that people dont do it.

And to this thread, I think its terrible advice to report someone just on a hunch.
At least check if they usually are in the same games.
Collution is serious stuff, and nothing to be taking lightly. (pretty much like that letter sais)

Click to expand...

Why? Stars will investigate it and if there's nothing untoward, then, nothing lost imo.

only_bridge said:

Just cause its terrible doesnt mean that people dont do it.

And to this thread, I think its terrible advice to report someone just on a hunch.
At least check if they usually are in the same games.
Collution is serious stuff, and nothing to be taking lightly. (pretty much like that letter sais)

Click to expand...

When you look back at your post (I can think of nothing less colluding than these two) I bet you feel a bit of a nugget saying that now eh


I've been playing SnG's for 2 years on pokerstars mainly and this is the first time I've noticed something odd, first time I reported something too and I guess my "hunch" as you say is quite a decent reliable one. I just had this feeling their play the whole FT was odd, thus was confirmed in the end I guess even by soft playing.

I didn't need to check if they was in the same game, I just had this feeling and was right I guess. Like Jonboy says, if nothing is untoward then theres no harm in reporting anyway, the ones accused wouldn't have anything happen to them.

ramdeebam said:

When you look back at your post (I can think of nothing less colluding than these two) I bet you feel a bit of a nugget saying that now eh


I've been playing SnG's for 2 years on pokerstars mainly and this is the first time I've noticed something odd, first time I reported something too and I guess my "hunch" as you say is quite a decent reliable one. I just had this feeling their play the whole FT was odd, thus was confirmed in the end I guess even by soft playing.

I didn't need to check if they was in the same game, I just had this feeling and was right I guess. Like Jonboy says, if nothing is untoward then theres no harm in reporting anyway, the ones accused wouldn't have anything happen to them.

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I couldn't agree more. Collusion is an epidemic at the 5 card draw tables on stars, and guess who the biggest offenders are? People from Belarus. You will always have 2 people from the same country who never play a hand, or when they do, squeeze play you to build a pot. These idiots will end up winning most of the time because they essentially play as one. I really congratulate stars on their quick response to this issue. I cant stand collusion, its the most filthiest form of cheating.

ramdeebam said:

When you look back at your post (I can think of nothing less colluding than these two) I bet you feel a bit of a nugget saying that now eh


I've been playing SnG's for 2 years on pokerstars mainly and this is the first time I've noticed something odd, first time I reported something too and I guess my "hunch" as you say is quite a decent reliable one. I just had this feeling their play the whole FT was odd, thus was confirmed in the end I guess even by soft playing.

I didn't need to check if they was in the same game, I just had this feeling and was right I guess. Like Jonboy says, if nothing is untoward then theres no harm in reporting anyway, the ones accused wouldn't have anything happen to them.

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I've been in a handful of games (SNG's) where a couple players were colluding.
If you have a 'hunch' as others have suggested, why not just look them up & see if they're playing in a bunch of the same games over a period of time? It's simple enough to do. Easiest way (imo) is to check them out on pokerprolabs as it's real easy to just scroll down the list of games they were in (or you can click on any of the games the one player had played & it'll show you the other players who were in it).

first hand seemed stand., 2nd one was WEIRD for sure.

WTG PokerStars!!! (... oh.. & wtg Ram too)

I think I'd like to play onlybridge in HU sng on ss's (just kidding 'onlyb'... you'd likely crush me < not joking)

Good 4 u for reporting, and excellant response by PokerStars