I have come to realise AK is not a monster tournament hand.

Thinker_145

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Ofcourse if you are a short stack then its a great hand however if you are sitting comfortably in a tournament then you really have to be cautious playing AK and really should not have too much trouble folding it even pre-flop.

The reason is simple, if your opponent has any 2 cards other than A and K then you are at best only a 2/3 favorite which in my opinion is not really a very strong position to be in if you are committing alot of chips to a pot. But that is ofcourse still a good position to be in however the big problem with AK is that its actually slightly behind any pair.

From what I have seen of atleast micro stakes tournaments is that people WILL call a shove with middle pairs and even small pairs sometimes.

Even worse problem I have experienced is that big stacks are also willing to call a shove with middle pairs even when I have them covered or almost covered. If I am a big stack then I am never risking all my chips pre-flop with a middle pair but thats clearly not how several other people think it seems.

And then comes the problem of what to do if you are facing a big raise pre-flop with AK? Well if you call, dont hit a pair and the opponent shoves what do you do? You just fold and bam you are no longer in a really comfortable spot that you were on previously. So I think in that spot you have to make a decision to either fold pre-flop or just go all in and take a leap of faith.

I think when you are a really big stack but there are other medium/big stacks behind you then its best to try to get to the flop as cheaply as possible. Even AKs doesnt really have that much more value than AKo, previously I was like I am never folding AKs pre-flop but thats clearly wrong way to go about it.

I personally have suffered by over estimating the strength of AK and have seen people suffer as well countless times even when they really didnt need to take a chance. When you shove with AK and get called by a pair of 4's that really makes you sick.

What is your opinion about AK and how do you play it in tournaments?
 
Beanfacekilla

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I recently made a thread about A-K.

I think this is, without a doubt, the most over-played hand in all of poker. But even so, I still open with it. It is a hand with a lot of potential. However, if I miss the flop, I am not going to go broke with it (everyone seems to always play until river with A-K for whatever reason).

The last hand people see in tournaments is often A-K.
 
ScottieDuncan

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Very over played. Your statements are true.
 
dmorris68

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AK is one of the most overplayed hands by novices, sure. However in the hands of a knowledgeable player with post-flop skills (something most novice players don't have) it's still an excellent hand. In the rankings of premium hands, it's usually ranked 3rd behind AA and KK, and for good reasons. Being a 2/3 favorite is HUGE in most situations, so that shouldn't be dismissed (insert the obligatory satty/DON bubble disclaimer here).

When stacks are deep, it's not a hand you generally want to build a big pot with before seeing a flop. 3betting is fine and often called for, but open-shoving 50+bbs with it is generally ill-advised. If you whiff the flop, it's generally worth at least a single street of betting/raising to better define your opponents range, but you've got to be able to let it go after that if you miss.

Holding AK means the odds of villain holding AA/KK are reduced, and you dominate all other Ax/Kx holding. It also reduces outs for the opponent holding smaller connected broadway cards who might be chasing the broadway straight. You're statistically a coin flip against any other pair, and sometimes a coin flip is still significant equity and a legit gamble to make. If you are short-stacked or relying on fold equity to take down a hand (which is probably questionable as AK is ahead of the vast majority of all but an uber-nit's range), it still has a significant amount of equity should you get called by all but AA/KK.

The problem is just that novice players have a hard time letting it go post-flop, same as with AA/KK post-flop when the action screams that you're beat. Yes it's sometimes worth a cbet when you whiff, but this is largely dependent on table image (yours and villain's) and other situational variables.
 
Arjonius

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AK is overplayed by more than novices, although not as often / as badly. However, let's stick to entry-level players for now and add one more sub-optimal things they tend to do to the ones dmorris68 already brought up.

It's to call all-in against multiple opponents. The odds of AK winning decrease significantly as the number of opponents increases. So, while you stand to win more when you call against two or more and win, you'll win less often. This may seem like it balances off, but in a tournament, it means you're putting no value on your tournament life.
 
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winflipsallday

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Mathematically its one of the best hands in the game. When people don't know how to play it, that's when its given the wrap as a "over-valued" hand. It certainly isn't a ticket for a free pot once the flop falls.
 
Thinker_145

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When stacks are deep, it's not a hand you generally want to build a big pot with before seeing a flop. 3betting is fine and often called for, but open-shoving 50+bbs with it is generally ill-advised. If you whiff the flop, it's generally worth at least a single street of betting/raising to better define your opponents range, but you've got to be able to let it go after that if you miss.
If you do that late in a tournament being a big stack you are going to lose atleast 1/3 of your chips because of how big the blinds are.

In the rankings of premium hands, it's usually ranked 3rd behind AA and KK, and for good reasons. Being a 2/3 favorite is HUGE in most situations, so that shouldn't be dismissed (insert the obligatory satty/DON bubble disclaimer here).
Why on earth would someone consider AK to be bigger than QQ? Seriously? I would also take JJ anyday over AK.

Being 2/3 is really not huge when you are a big stack its not worth the risk. Being 3/4 is the minimum that I am comfortable with.
 
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AK plays well if your the aggressor or also if you like to late shuv or ship it in a tournament,
if you play it correctly your equity is likely to be around 70% or more based on the % you win without a showdown in addition to the % your showdown wins when called.
its profitable

I would never call off an all in with KA against an even stack or conservative big stack in unless I had too
In addition I would like to avoid the toss unless ive 3-bet ''and after 3-betting they push then its standard.

the main mistake people make is not caring where they are positioned and what the action is at the table.
we dont need to gamble and call of purely because we have AK , we can win tournaments by being disciplined and responding to good spots, always trying to take initiative as the agressor
 
Beanfacekilla

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If you do that late in a tournament being a big stack you are going to lose atleast 1/3 of your chips because of how big the blinds are.


Why on earth would someone consider AK to be bigger than QQ? Seriously? I would also take JJ anyday over AK.

Being 2/3 is really not huge when you are a big stack its not worth the risk. Being 3/4 is the minimum that I am comfortable with.


2/3 is not a huge edge when you have a big stack? Wow man. How will you ever win a tournament if you don't consider this worthy of risking a big stack? The deck would need to smack you silly...
 
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do you guys hear what your saying?ak is a monster hand, ill take it pre flop almost always unless there is an all in raise that i do not neccessarily have to be a part of
 
dmorris68

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If you do that late in a tournament being a big stack you are going to lose atleast 1/3 of your chips because of how big the blinds are.
Late in a tourney you're not deep. That's when you shove it. And if you're not open-shoving AK when short-stacked, then that's a leak (in most cases - there are exceptions).

Why on earth would someone consider AK to be bigger than QQ? Seriously? I would also take JJ anyday over AK.
Because it's a coin flip, and a coin flip carries a lot of equity in the right situation. It's a fist-pump snap shove in some situations, it's a fold in others.

It's not like I'm pulling this out of my ass. Read any poker book or training. It's widely understood that AK is a premium holding in the topmost tier of starting hands. Some charts will include QQ in that top tier, a few even include JJ although I wouldn't. Again, it depends on the situation, but there are many (almost always in a cash game, much of the time in a tourney) where I'm happy to get AIPF with AK in a HU pot. Where most people butcher this hand is overplaying it post-flop, not pre-flop.

Being 2/3 is really not huge when you are a big stack its not worth the risk. Being 3/4 is the minimum that I am comfortable with.
And there's a term for that type of player in poker. They're called nits. :) And they tend not to win a lot of MTTs.
 
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matiusaa

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Well it really depends on the people of the table, the blinds you have, the moment of the tournament. I would certainly play that hand, but wouldn't risk more than 1/3rd of my chips, if I have a healthy stack cause you could happen to face KK or AA and you would be probable out. Thats my oppinion, but AKs is almost as good as QQ
 
zEric7x

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Sometimes when I have ace king it just seems to make me think "float!!!" I am also learning to give this hand up in some instances.
 
scorpion1367

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AK is a very good starting hand preflop,but like many connectors which is essentially what I see it as being ,it is also therefore a speculative hand imo top of the ladder speculative mind you.I see many people who seem to be incapable of laying it down post flop when they miss which will happen a good portion of the time,after all if it is unsuited you really only have 6outs for a tptk situation........scorp
 
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I'll concur with dmorris's statements. It is overplayed, but generally post flop and by basic level thinkers (novices). Seeing as this is in tournament poker and the majority of MTT poker is spent shortstacked it is really difficult to overplay AK preflop.

For whoever stated they would rather have JJ than AK, you are correct in that JJ is superior in terms of equity and if you went AIPF you would win more than you lose. The issue with this is that you don't make decisions against a single hand, you make your decisions against a range of hands. This is where AK shines because it blocks AA/KK, flips with any other pair and dominates broadways/Ax.
 
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Ofcourse if you are a short stack then its a great hand however if you are sitting comfortably in a tournament then you really have to be cautious playing AK and really should not have too much trouble folding it even pre-flop.

You can't just think it's a great hand if you're short stacked? When you're short stacked, you should of a TON of worse hands in your range which should be classed as "great" given your stack size. If you have a comfortable stack size in a tournament, you shouldn't be wanting to just fold a hand like AK facing action. Assuming we have already built a big stack size we should be running over the table by this point and by being dealt AK is about as good as a spot you could hope for and just hope you get some action.

The reason is simple, if your opponent has any 2 cards other than A and K then you are at best only a 2/3 favorite which in my opinion is not really a very strong position to be in if you are committing alot of chips to a pot. But that is ofcourse still a good position to be in however the big problem with AK is that its actually slightly behind any pair.

We're talking about micros. You really think people are stacking of pairs and AK+ only here? You should be taking into account stack sizes, positions and the fact they are micros and peoples hand ranges consist of a LOT worse.

From what I have seen of atleast micro stakes tournaments is that people WILL call a shove with middle pairs and even small pairs sometimes.

Again, you're not really thinking about the overall hand ranges at micros. You seem to think we're only ever up against pairs. If you play micros, you should notice people call so much worse. Any Ax, some Kx broadways, pairs and other sorts of garbage.

Even worse problem I have experienced is that big stacks are also willing to call a shove with middle pairs even when I have them covered or almost covered. If I am a big stack then I am never risking all my chips pre-flop with a middle pair but thats clearly not how several other people think it seems.

Not sure why you seem to think if we have AK, everyone always has a pair lol. Think of the overall range of hands these guys play. As a big stack you SHOULD be putting on pressure and AK is like one of the best hands to do so at most points in the tournaments.

If you're a big stack; then there are going to be tons of short stacks meaning it's never ever going to be -EV to get AK in pre flop and likely the most optimal play vs most players.

And then comes the problem of what to do if you are facing a big raise pre-flop with AK? Well if you call, dont hit a pair and the opponent shoves what do you do? You just fold and bam you are no longer in a really comfortable spot that you were on previously. So I think in that spot you have to make a decision to either fold pre-flop or just go all in and take a leap of faith.

If you're calling of a significant portion of your chips which will cripple your stack size with AK preflop just to see a flop this is going to be so terrible. In general you should be happy getting AK in pre flop in most stages in tournaments even more so at the micros, even more so as the tournament is entering the middle/late stages and there's antes in play and all sorts of stack sizes.

I think when you are a really big stack but there are other medium/big stacks behind you then its best to try to get to the flop as cheaply as possible. Even AKs doesnt really have that much more value than AKo, previously I was like I am never folding AKs pre-flop but thats clearly wrong way to go about it.

I personally have suffered by over estimating the strength of AK and have seen people suffer as well countless times even when they really didnt need to take a chance. When you shove with AK and get called by a pair of 4's that really makes you sick.

This is the absolute worse thing you can do. If we have a big stack and there are other big/medium stacks behind then we're assuming antes must be in play. Seeing flops vs medium stack sizes with AK is just going to be bad. We should be 3betting AK, getting it in and probably wider given people will steal/open wide.

You're giving hands which raise light pre flop to much equity because you're not factoring in our fold equity and the times we're called we're likely flipping at the WORSE in tournaments. People are happy getting AT for example in micros with medium stack sizes and that's giving a generous range for them.

Not sure why but you seem adamant when we have AK, people will always be flipping at worse vs us with a pair which is rarely the case especially as the stack sizes get smaller and smaller.

When you shove AK and get called by 44, you shouldn't be sick...you should be happy.
 
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naruto_miu

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jangalang37

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Like someone else said, unless I hit the flop with ak then I'll fold it to a nice raise. I think its extremely over rated. On lock I see AJ or AQ more often then AK.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I think they were trying to say that AK gets people knocked out of MTTs the most. That is my guess.


That could be a valid hypothesis. Cheers.
 
TeUnit

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still see ak getting it in with 100+bbs all the time
 
Beanfacekilla

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still see ak getting it in with 100+bbs all the time


That is why I think it is the most overplayed hand in poker. People just think it is invincible.
 
Akorps

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By the way, what is the math that makes 3 betting so popular?
 
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ak is a good hand in tournaments if you are short stacked i personally love ak just have to hope you don't run into pocket aces
 
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