I found a huge leak with my bankroll and wanted to share...

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ph_il

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...because i don't want you to make the same mistake.

My leak: I am way too loose with my re-entries in mtts.

A quick backstory: at the start of august, I reset my sharkscope graph because I wanted to start fresh and focus on improving my game, getting solid results, and building my self confidence as a micro-stakes mtt player.

I think i'm doing ok. I don't put in much volume and have only played 82 mtts played so far but, in that short time, I've made 10 final tables, half of them being top 3 finishes with 3 mtt wins. Please note that this isn't a brag, i still don't think i'm that good of a player and there is some purpose to this information that i'll get to later.

Onto the leak: majority of my mtts played are $1.10 buy-ins. However, my average buy-in (including rake) is $1.86, which means I'm paying .76 more per game played. With 82 mtts played, that's an extra $62.38 i'm paying in re-entries, or equal to re-entering once in 57/82 mtts. Now, i do have a 38% itm, so I can assume I'm making my money back in ~20 of those re-entries or +$22 returned, but that's still $40.38 i've spewed off in re-entries.

Now, here is the tricky part. Going back to my final table finishes, i only made those final tables because of re-entries. With the exception of freezeout mtts, i used at least 2-3, sometimes even as much as 6 re-entries in an mtt that made final tables in. And if I hadn't, I wouldn't have had the same results. But, the question is, are my final table results worth the $40+ I spewed away in re-entries?

I'm not quite sure.

One one hand, I've probably made more money with the final table cashes than I did if I had not used as many re-entries, so it's not like it was a total waste. However, making a final table 1:8 mtts is not sustainable at at all and, if i kept this up, i might end spewing off more in re-entries than i am in making final table runs. The $40 dollars i've given up is pretty significant. My best mtt win is $47 and i practically spewed that win off with my loose re-entries. In fact, i'm up $110 in profits but could have been up at least $150, so i threw away 27% of my profits with loose re-entries.

So, what is the solution? I think the best solution is to find a nice middle ground to allow re-entries but under really strict guidelines. I'm going to experiment with only allowing myself 1 re-entry per mtt, but only if I start with a minimum of 20+ bbs. This is great because i late register anyways and dropping down to 20 bbs or lower is going to be a lot faster than if i had started from the start. So, i'll be saving a lot more money by not re-entering majority of the time. If you play mtts from the start, you might try something different. Of course, I'm going to make deep runs and final tables less frequently, but i'll make up for it by spending a lot less on re-entries and keeping that money in my bankroll.

Anyway, that's it. I think re-entry mtts are great, especially because I don't have many options if I want to play mtt poker on BetOnline. But, now I'm going to be a lot more careful about letting my money go too easily.
 
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fundiver199

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Reentering a tournament is just the same as playing another similar tournament, so it should not affect your ROI to much. The only difference is, you (re)enter the tournament at a later point, where blinds have gone up, and this will tend to decrease your ROI, if you master deeper stacked play.

So rather than limiting, how many times you reenter, it makes more sense to limit, how late you will register OR reenter to a tournament. And for me I would probably but that number higher than just 20BB, because at this stack depth skill edges are already reduced significantly.
 
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lucky88

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I agree everything in post above.
 
Joe

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I agree everything in post below. :)
 
NWPatriot

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Your ROI is the most important thing to measure. Do you have a +ROI for all your money spent vs. money won?

If you monitor your cash rate, then re-entry's will skew your numbers if you do not consider each entry a new tournament. There is no sense deceiving yourself by considering 5 entries as a single tournament. But you can obviously do whatever you want with your own numbers. Many consider cash rate to be not important, but I do find it interesting and it forces a certain mindset for those that pay attention to it.


As for late entries, I think this is all about ensuring you are still able to play poker. If you buy-in and immediately are playing in a shove fest (bingo poker), then this is not as much poker as it is just gambling. You want full chip utility to play a solid game. If your stack will not allow standard raise sizes without ending up all-in, then maybe it is too late to enter. Personally I want to ensure that the average stack is not more than 2x my entry stack (this way I can theoretically be at the average in a single hand), and I need at least a 25bb stack, >30bb is better. Anything less than this is a crapshoot and we either get lucky or we don't. If we want to play poker with an edge and be able to utilize what poker skill we have, then we don't want to enter a tournament and be paralyzed from the get go.

Of course many just want to gamble and get to the bubble quickly. And that is fine, if that is what you want to do when you buy-in. Personally I play to win every time I play. It is too hard to win to begin with, to throw new money into a prize pool where I am the bottom stack. That is a serious disadvantage, and I am sure the other players appreciate the donation.

Good luck and God bless.
 
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thanks for the replies. this thread is stupid. please ignore from this point forward.
 
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fundiver199

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Your ROI is the most important thing to measure. Do you have a +ROI for all your money spent vs. money won?

And just for the record neither tracking sites like Sharkscope or programs like PT4 consider rebuys, reentrys or add-ons, when they calculate your total buyin amount or your ROI. So if for instance PT4 show, you bought in for a total of 2.000$ and won 800$, this is not really a 40% ROI, if you did a lot of rebuying or reentering.
 
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popstani

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I agree with everything said before, and want to add, every re- entry is a new buy in, so you didn’t play 86 tournaments, you played lots more. If it’s one re- entry per tournament, then you played 172 tournaments.
 
terryk

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I promised myself a long time ago,not to play rebuys.It promotes loose play and do we really need more of that? ;)
 
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300HPGOD

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I will add another thing to consider about re entering and that is that you have already been knocked out once and this might be affecting your current mental state. It would depend on how you got knocked out and if when you re enter are you being put back at the same table but one reason I usually do not rebuy is it usually puts me a more on tilt than I normally would be. I will play in other tournaments after being knocked out but for me personally I feel like I am starting fresh when starting another tournament vs rebuying in one. Maybe that is just unique to me but just wanted to throw it out there it might affect you more playing in a tournament you already were knocked out of vs playing in a fresh one.
 
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ProfessorGrind

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Thanks for sharing - it's always good to analyze your results and do something to improve.
 
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...because i don't want you to make the same mistake.

My leak: I am way too loose with my re-entries in mtts.

A quick backstory: at the start of august, I reset my sharkscope graph because I wanted to start fresh and focus on improving my game, getting solid results, and building my self confidence as a micro-stakes mtt player.

I think i'm doing ok. I don't put in much volume and have only played 82 mtts played so far but, in that short time, I've made 10 final tables, half of them being top 3 finishes with 3 mtt wins. Please note that this isn't a brag, i still don't think i'm that good of a player and there is some purpose to this information that i'll get to later.

Onto the leak: majority of my mtts played are $1.10 buy-ins. However, my average buy-in (including rake) is $1.86, which means I'm paying .76 more per game played. With 82 mtts played, that's an extra $62.38 i'm paying in re-entries, or equal to re-entering once in 57/82 mtts. Now, i do have a 38% itm, so I can assume I'm making my money back in ~20 of those re-entries or +$22 returned, but that's still $40.38 i've spewed off in re-entries.

Now, here is the tricky part. Going back to my final table finishes, i only made those final tables because of re-entries. With the exception of freezeout mtts, i used at least 2-3, sometimes even as much as 6 re-entries in an mtt that made final tables in. And if I hadn't, I wouldn't have had the same results. But, the question is, are my final table results worth the $40+ I spewed away in re-entries?

I'm not quite sure.

One one hand, I've probably made more money with the final table cashes than I did if I had not used as many re-entries, so it's not like it was a total waste. However, making a final table 1:8 mtts is not sustainable at at all and, if i kept this up, i might end spewing off more in re-entries than i am in making final table runs. The $40 dollars i've given up is pretty significant. My best mtt win is $47 and i practically spewed that win off with my loose re-entries. In fact, i'm up $110 in profits but could have been up at least $150, so i threw away 27% of my profits with loose re-entries.

So, what is the solution? I think the best solution is to find a nice middle ground to allow re-entries but under really strict guidelines. I'm going to experiment with only allowing myself 1 re-entry per mtt, but only if I start with a minimum of 20+ bbs. This is great because i late register anyways and dropping down to 20 bbs or lower is going to be a lot faster than if i had started from the start. So, i'll be saving a lot more money by not re-entering majority of the time. If you play mtts from the start, you might try something different. Of course, I'm going to make deep runs and final tables less frequently, but i'll make up for it by spending a lot less on re-entries and keeping that money in my bankroll.

Anyway, that's it. I think re-entry mtts are great, especially because I don't have many options if I want to play mtt poker on BetOnline. But, now I'm going to be a lot more careful about letting my money go too easily.
so much this ^^
 
hugh blair

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QUOTE,i found a huge leak with my bankroll and wanted to share...
Definitely the deposit button is the biggest leak for me followed by that darn register button another huge secondary leak.:nurse:

 
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ph_il

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i didn't realize sharkscope skewed results so much.

so, to fix that and to not give myself a false sense of thinking i'm doing well, i decided to reset my stats and start over, but with the intention of using 1 buy-in per mtt i play, to make sure my stats are as precise as possible.

i did have a pretty hot august with 10 mtt final tables and 3 wins, but i'm going to have to give that up to have more accurate stats. it's not big deal, though. it might now show the wins anymore, but i know i won. i think it's more important to know how well/bad i'm actually doing over a large sample size, without skewed numbers, instead of having a pretty graph.
 
Vallet

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It's good that you discovered this leak during. Many players are so overwhelmed by the final tables and prizes that they don't notice the cost of re-entering. Repeated chances are good only when you manage to reach high places
 
antonis32123

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Although I play on the very micros , i do not like re-enties . I can pay for them , I read that basically it's like entering a new tourney , but still I think I 'd better call it a day and leave the table , most of the times when I reentered I just lost again , or lost also my patience lol . I can go easily on tilt and make again the mistakes that busted me initially , much looser game than the one with the first bullet . :)
 
amatola

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I think it depends how and when you use your first bullet - but yes, if you tilted at all, dont re enter. But if you manage to get it all in pre flop with AA and lose and it's still early, I re enter.
 
partz

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If You know how to play on big blinds with a low stack theres no problem. I do that too cause is better to re enter into a game with folks u already know their style of play then start over again with new players. But ofc risks to get eliminated might be bigger when we do re-enter, but in poker there's always risks so I like the odds that comes with this kind of strategy.
 
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