I don't know if I'm good at sng's or not?

A

Aldito

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2010
Total posts
1,246
Chips
0
I used to completely suck at sngs when I started out playing. I was a complete tool. But I kept practicing(at the expense of my cc) and I managed to get better. I read Colin Moshman's book and my push/fold game got a lot better. So now I'm wondering what sort of sample size I need to

It just feels like you have your money in 70/30 favourite enough times that it's hard to win the thing. For example i was CL with 3 left in a 6 man sng.Blinds 100/200 i raise 77 to 550 on the button, sb folds bb(ss) shoves for 2k and I call he has A6 flops trip 6's. Then the next hand AA i raise same he shoves ATs flops flush.

I don't know it just feels like I'm making the right pushes/folds but I still keep losing. I use the hand charts in CM's book but I just seem to keep bubbling through open shoving 7's or 8's in the sb for 10bbs only to be called by J9 and losing.

It's just demoralising when I seem to be making the right decision and then losing. I went on a streak of about 8 sng's ootm tonight(mainly 10 mans). Should I just quit and start playing cash?

Sorry long post
 
billdogg

billdogg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 20, 2010
Total posts
590
Chips
0
Keep sticking with it, and getting your money in good like you have. You will lose a 60/40 hand 40 percent of the time, but it will feel like more since you remember those losses more. After a while, with enough games, things will even out.
 
straytfrush

straytfrush

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Total posts
487
Chips
0
In the future calling a shove with anything 1010 or lower is usually just a coinflip if they come over the top like that they usually have broadway cards or a PP. If it would cripple your stack to lose in something like that its a big risk to take. Perhaps a fold would be better in the future.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Do you know how many games you've played all up and what your overall ROI is?

Anything less than a thousand games is a pretty small sample and if you're making good decisions consistently you should be able to achieve an ROI above 5%.

The examples you've given above are just coolers or negative variance. They're unfortunate but the worst hand still has to win occasionally.
 
Daniel72

Daniel72

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Total posts
2,284
Awards
2
Chips
18
You need a larger samplesize. SNG´s is the easiest poker format to play, it´s recommended for beginners - because there is almost no postflop play involved like in cashgames. Everybody can master Sit-and-Go´s. Just make good decisions preflop and the money flows into your wallet in the long run, good luck !
:cool:
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Total posts
3,904
Chips
0
I used to completely suck at sngs when I started out playing. I was a complete tool. But I kept practicing(at the expense of my cc) and I managed to get better. I read Colin Moshman's book and my push/fold game got a lot better. So now I'm wondering what sort of sample size I need to

It just feels like you have your money in 70/30 favourite enough times that it's hard to win the thing. For example i was CL with 3 left in a 6 man sng.Blinds 100/200 i raise 77 to 550 on the button, sb folds bb(ss) shoves for 2k and I call he has A6 flops trip 6's. Then the next hand AA i raise same he shoves ATs flops flush.

I don't know it just feels like I'm making the right pushes/folds but I still keep losing. I use the hand charts in CM's book but I just seem to keep bubbling through open shoving 7's or 8's in the sb for 10bbs only to be called by J9 and losing.

It's just demoralising when I seem to be making the right decision and then losing. I went on a streak of about 8 sng's ootm tonight(mainly 10 mans). Should I just quit and start playing cash?

Sorry long post

Probably a victim of variance and small sample size. I've actually had longer streaks finishing out of the money :eek:, so don't feel too bad. SNG's are much more swingy because you have so many more showdowns than in other games (I think my WTSD% is like 60%, which is probably wayyy too high anyway, but you get my point). As Oz and others have said, you need almost 1000 games to see if you really have knack for this game, and it takes a couple thousand games to really pinpoint your ROI. Just keep studying and focus on making the right decisions, don't focus on results.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

Jammin................
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Total posts
11,706
Awards
2
Chips
122
The charts in SnG strategy are only a starting point. I am working on push/fold charts of my own, making them with SnGwizzard (only just starting) but the charts are real game dependent - turbo, 6 max, 9 man, 18 man etc - and also must be flexible according to position, which is not real detailed in SnG strategy. And are table dynamic dependent, if you are not multitabling, meaning if you have reads, the charts are a basis for your decision, but take your reads and table dynamics into consideration too.

And ditto the comments on variance. You can lose many hands after a correct decision. Dont let that make you change a correct strategy. Review your game, and if you are playing correct, live with the variance. It will turn around soon enough.
 
KINGSIN

KINGSIN

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Total posts
81
Chips
0
The Big Blind has a 10bb so you should of pushed on him first with the 77, but you didn't give info on small blind stack, so maybe that wasn't optimal. If the small blind was under 10bb you should have pushed on both of them. If he was over a small raise about 2.5bb is proper and if you get reraised by either id just drop/ and move to next hand. The AA just a cooler, use Sit go wizzard to evaluate your play, and your know if your doing right.
 
Z

Zync

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Total posts
52
Chips
0
This is happening to everybody. Sometime, it looks like if you push all-in, you'll always be called by a hand that dominates you. The other time when you dominate, the 3 cards remaining to the villain falls.

Keep playing and push at the right time and you'll win on the long run.

Recently, I did the adjustment of not pushing but raising 2.5BB at the bubble time. This give me an exit door if I'm re-raise with a weak hand. The thing is that I'll play the AA the same way as a K8s so my raise is not giving any information. I did it just for a couple of games after losing multiple when I push with a weak ace and being called by a better one.

If I'm holding A4os on the button with about 12-15BB, I was almost always making a push. This is now where I do by small raise. I can't tell you if it's good or not on a big sample but so far, it did help me survive bubble in a couple of games.
 
N

nightmoves44

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Total posts
1,967
Awards
1
Chips
0
My advice may be useless but here goes.After playing online over the years,I sorta develop a feel for the table and dont really overthink my plays.Its been working for me,So im thinking maybe you just need to play more games.I may be wrong tho.Theres alot of very smart players here,so Im sure someone can help ya,gl
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

Jammin................
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Total posts
11,706
Awards
2
Chips
122
quit and start playing cash


You seem to like the one liner posts, that are lacking in content or information. Looking for post count for FR?

No offense, but all the posts I see from you are in the same vein as the one above. I suppose there could be a small humor factor (?) in you answer here (or you tried to get there), but its kinda like telling a classical musician who is hitting a slump and wondering exactly where they stand in their progress to quit and start playing jazz. Neither helpful, informative or really funny at all.
 
B

BigThingWithHolesInIt

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Total posts
289
Awards
1
Chips
6
If you're getting your money in with the best hand, regardless of the outcome, you played the hand well.

It helps to tell yourself this once in a while.
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Total posts
491
Chips
0
It sounds like you have dedicated some time and study to SNG's so I'd stick with that. I'm assuming that you like that play arena better than cash games. If not, then I'd consider trying your hand at some ring games.

The examples you talk about in your post are certainly tough beats but they happen to all of us. Experience will teach you that although it sucks to run bad...the longer you do....the longer your hot streak will be on the back side of your tailspin. Don't let the bad luck shy you away from making good decisions because you think someone will suckout on you AGAIN!!!...that's how you lose even more money.

Are you studying your game? I ask this because it took me awhile to do this and it cost me some money. Look at your HH's and be honest and humble. I recently found a hole in my SNG game. I wasn't performing very well as a chip leader and posted about it. I got some very good responses and I implemented some of the advice. I only have a small sample size but so far, my play has improved as a chip leader because I took the time to find that hole.

The last bit of advice is to not take EVERYTHING in a book literally. Books can't be in the exact situation you find yourself in with the exact same players. They are very good tools and useful but don't make it blanket. Random example: you're in a bubble situation and the low stack is a very tight player who's folding...waiting for the right hand to shove...and then shoves. You have a A10 type hand and the book says call....well, in most cases, I'd consider it. However, in this instance, I'd probably fold because you have to respect that players table image.

There are just some random thoughts I had based on your post. I hope some of them maybe useful to you :)
 
joe steady

joe steady

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Total posts
287
Chips
0
It's just demoralising when I seem to be making the right decision and then losing. I went on a streak of about 8 sng's ootm tonight(mainly 10 mans). Should I just quit and start playing cash?

Sorry long post
Trust me, you'll lose coin flips, it happens. You've probably heard "Don't be so results-oriented," and wanted to punch whoever said it because losing sucks, but it's true. You're doing the right thing, keep doing the right thing and making the right choices and it will turn around for you. In all honesty, being out of the money in 8 isn't that big of a deal, I've heard of people losing 200+, and they're making a living at grinding SnG's. Good luck, keep us posted.
 
S

swingro

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Total posts
1,634
Chips
0
I used to completely suck at sngs when I started out playing. I was a complete tool. But I kept practicing(at the expense of my cc) and I managed to get better. I read Colin Moshman's book and my push/fold game got a lot better. So now I'm wondering what sort of sample size I need to

It just feels like you have your money in 70/30 favourite enough times that it's hard to win the thing. For example i was CL with 3 left in a 6 man sng.Blinds 100/200 i raise 77 to 550 on the button, sb folds bb(ss) shoves for 2k and I call he has A6 flops trip 6's. Then the next hand AA i raise same he shoves ATs flops flush.

I don't know it just feels like I'm making the right pushes/folds but I still keep losing. I use the hand charts in CM's book but I just seem to keep bubbling through open shoving 7's or 8's in the sb for 10bbs only to be called by J9 and losing.

It's just demoralising when I seem to be making the right decision and then losing. I went on a streak of about 8 sng's ootm tonight(mainly 10 mans). Should I just quit and start playing cash?

Sorry long post


I cannot tell you if you played good the 77 because i do not know your stack size at that moment. But if you were somewhere near him you should had folded ( Read the QQ example at high blind chapter in Moshman's book ). Your and his equity decreased a lot.But with aces it is right to push at any moment if you are HU with someone. That was jsut a bad beat and bad beats happen.
 
Top