I can't get my head around this pushing game <<10bbs

Again, a bad night. A night where I think if I didn't push when I did I could of quite easily "limped" in the money and maybe even possibly gone on to win the tournament. So an 18man SnG. I'm second in chips in one game and 1st in chips in and even though I'm like 4times bigger stack than the lower ones and even where I'm 1st out of 5 in the other I'm still only around 10bb/s yet according to Colin Moshman it's still time to push. How does this work out?..

I mean basically I ended up pushing in both tournaments where I had 10bb/s or less and lets bear in mind the shortest stacks who do this in every tournament willl fold all the way til their forced to go all-in or blinded away. Recently since I've been following this pushing game for SnG's there are ALWAYS without fail short stacks who are 1bb/s 2 and 3bb/s who folding and liming in the money..and I end up getting called by either second in chips or some someone who can put me in the lower range of BB's. So next hand again I'm allin and within 1 or 2 hands from 1st or 2nd I end up busting outside the bubble and this has hapened CONSISTENTLY..

What the hell ? Then you watch the tables and see these short stacks fold all day get one double up get another good hand and end up winning. I used to play and push with maybe 3/4bb's and got PROFIT, now im losing consistently yet I'm still being told it's the correct move and the ICM calculator says it is too im just so unconvinced.

All it feels like to me is i'm putting myself out of a postion to deffo cash and potentially with the tournament by pushing when I could just wait and let these smaller stacks stack off with each other. You don't realise how annoying this becoming for me...

If I recorded a session of xamont of tables would some SnG player who plays this way and turns aprofit look at the video and see wtf is going on?

It is winding me up! ARrrrg


UPDATE: Just thought I'd let you know, in my 45man tournament, im3rd in chips, 8 left 7 get paid and stupidly im still taking this bad advice. I'm under 10bbs yet according to MOSHMAN and all other things out there it is now time to PUSH. there are 2 stacks who both have 1.5bbs and I could EASILY of made the money. Of course I push in the cutoff with A,10s. Good push, correct? Exactly right. I get called by 2nd in chips with A,Q and bust.

How can this work really? I mean its very common for a table INCLUDING chip leader to be all under 10bbs so what the hell??? It's like you play tight early then towards the end "just go donk of your chips np" Gets me so mad..

I've never played like this, my pushing range is like 4bb/s and when I was playing like this if i loaded up 10 tables i could gurantee mysef that I would at least cash and make a profit. Now I'm consistently loading up 10 tables and its no uncommon for me to even cash in one. So im just donking of my money $10.00 at a time...


I know full well its hapening everytime and its draining me big time..I'm doing something I dont feel is correct yet all these successful SnG grinders do it and turn over profits yet im doing exactly the same yet I've lost so much over the course of 100 games. It can't be just coinicendace can it and I'm riding bad? Cos everytime I push with a hand I'm thinking "this is stupid"

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

POKER ORFICE or anyone could maybe sweat me doing this or something. Or I could record a session to show you an example of this annoying shite..

We're not trying to cash. Keep shoving

Just a question. IF you are 1st,2nd in chips and there are still 6 left yet your BB is below 10. Are you pushing still? I really cant get my head around this, why you should potentially donk off all your money for some idiots who sit there with 1bb/s or 2bb/s waiting for someone to bust out and I forfeit my good play prior to these pushes? I'm serious when I say this, but why bother playing this tight game then just going for some pot luck pushing with 8-10bb's when your 2nd in chips and almost guranted to cash when there are several stacks still below you?

It's getting me mad because I think it is just DUMB and stupid play. However because so many say that it is correct I'm stillll doing it hoping my results will turn round. SIGH.

onemorechance said:

We're not trying to cash. Keep shoving

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I know that mate. Point I'm making the 45man is the perfect example. Why when I'm 3rd in chips still under 10bb/s and on the bubble with 7th getting paid is it wise to start shoving chips around for some idiot 1bb/s to just wait around for someone like me to shove chips agaisnt a big stack or ultimately get called by a mid stack leaving me with 2BB/s theni push again whilst small stack folds all day and i get called by the large stack and bust. Then you watch these annoying people once they reach the money start pushing.

I dont play to limp in the money, I play to win but I can't see the logic with the example I just gave. Iv numerous times been 4/5bbs even 3 before I push, on the bubble or close to bubble and gone on to win the tournament. Plently of times this has happened, yet I'm becoming more and more out of the money and finishing within touching distance yet shoving my healthy stack on a some what marginal hand.

Why when I can often come from a short stack to winning the game to then start playing this shovefest at 10bb/s and not even cashing..Seems vert daft.

It seriously feels like im wasting my time playing the sodding things because towards end I'm shoving totally marginal hands I'd of never done. It's like a previous thread I made, I made $100.00 with in a few day splaying the way I was then I wanted to expand and improve on my game so read Colin Moshman SnG guide and all I've done it lost nearly every day since and I dont understand it.

Oh and this is the graph. As you see, when I started up SnG's again, I peaked at $110.00 and was consistenty making a profit each day. I then took a couple of days off because I wanted to improved my game so read Moshman SnG stratergy.

From the very first games I started to lose and as you can see, it's consistently DROPPED applying his theory. There are very few little upswings, but as you can see, it doesn't look like it's working for me and I bet it would carry on dropping and going into the negative. In fact it's a perfect graph as you can see the big down swings at a time of one session. As you can see previously, there was tiny downswings of a few dollars here and there but the big deeps are session losses. Same amount of tables too so yeah, not a coinincedence to me..what do you think?

I am having the same problem in MTTs. See the post three or four before this. I think I.m ready for a break. GL2U my man.

Sorry for all these posts but I was so wound up.

Just had a thought, his guide is for STT SnG's from what I just saw. Does this mean this theory DOESNT apply to the MTT SnG's? If not then LOL..at me..I'm sure its the same principle though.

I haven't read Moshman but I think it is specifically applied to STTs. That being said, the push mode <<10BB is still the norm in larger SNGs too.

As for your conundrum it sounds like two things: you're hitting a patch of bad variance and you're "doing it wrong" so to speak. Part of the push game is knowing who's going to fold and why. If you see someone who's willing to stack off with a marginal hand like Ax, K9s, etc. even when they're in a very healthy chip position you have to push less junk at them. You also want to avoid pushing into bigger stacks too often. $$ dynamics matter too, so in an STT bubbling is a much bigger deal than in a 45-man and people will call you down a bit lighter on the bubble. Examine the pay jumps in the tournament you're in; in a 45-man the bubble-ITM jump is a spot people tighten up a bit but the real "bubble" is when you're 4-handed. The money jump from 4th-3rd is quite sizeable in those 45's. It's also much more effective to dominate a bubble when you're short handed as opposed to 8 handed (as in 45's).

One more thing to keep in mind is that you're trying to apply a "dumb" new strategy. You're going to fall on your face a bit before you get the hang of it.

Ok. If you re-read your other thread on this, you'll notice everyone is talking about "Hands you'd normally raise with, shove instead when <10 BB"
So assume you're playing the hand like you're +20BB, but you only have 7BB. So you open with 3 BBs and you get a caller behind. Flop comes out and you miss. Now what? You only have 4BB left and the pot is 6BB....looks like we should have pushed pf and made our caller decide if his hand is worth 7BB pf instead of deciding if it's worth 4 more BB after seeing the flop....so the would be caller looks down at KQos, his stack, the pending bubble and decides: "meh...shoving from ep...must have something...I'll pick my battle...no need to double him up and risk my chips here"...the blinds follow suit. You're now at 9.5BB+a table full on antes...you've just bought one complete cycle of cards before your back to your starting 7BBs...

Now look what you wrote in this thread:

ramdeebam said:

yet I'm becoming more and more out of the money and finishing within touching distance yet shoving my healthy stack on a some what marginal hand.

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So you'd raise with this on a some what marginal hand if you were chip leader from the position you're in? If the answer is an easy "no", then the right move here is fold and wait for the one to push with.

Cashing

Most people would probably NOT agree with me but if your'e that close to cashing...put some money in your bankroll by coming ITM first. just like you were doing....then go for the win....bottom line for ME is putting more money in my account ...the wins will come!

Ram maybe post a few of these hands where it's going wrong???

Well...the ATs example seems like a standard shove that just ran into a better hand. If other examples are similar then it's just variance.

I think there are two things that are hindering your profitability right now, and the first one isn't even really hindering it...it's just that Moshman and his cronies put in a LOT more volume, and over the number of SnGs they play, the shoving moves they use are +EV in the long term - that isn't to say that they don't suffer swings and variance.

The second thing is that the 10BB rule, while fundamentally sound, is a rule meant to be broken. Sure, if it is folded to you, and the players behind are tight (assuming you are HUDing them), you might shove with any two. But if a tight 10/8 player min-raises and he has around 20BB, he may very well be trapping you...if a reg has less than 10 as well, he may be shoving light. If the cutoff raises up and he's been folding into the money, does he have you beat? Especially in multi-table SNGs where you have a modicum of information on your opponents, you should take them into account.

And when in doubt, shove.

PokerPete said:

Ok. If you re-read your other thread on this, you'll notice everyone is talking about "Hands you'd normally raise with, shove instead when <10 BB"

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No, it's not my "normal" hands like I say. I mean I'd never raise with Something like K,J or A rag but because my stack is below 10bbs and I'm in the cutoff or the button for example and face no action - Moshmans theory determines a push. As does ICM tool...


So you'd raise with this on a some what marginal hand if you were chip leader from the position you're in? If the answer is an easy "no", then the right move here is fold and wait for the one to push with.[/quote]


Noooo this was my point. I felt totally uncomfortable shoving my 8-10bb/s stack for example on a marginal hand which would be instant fold early/mid stakg tournanent. It's because my stack is below 10bbs I'm shoving and as you say if my answer is "no" then I should fold. Now, this defeats his whole shoving range game which he talks about and this is my whole point to the threads I've made recently. I'd of normally folded for example, K,J with 8-10bbs or so and wait for a better hand but it seems the inncorrect move yet I can see why in some cases espically if I am 2nd in chips and there aer 1 / 2 bb/s stacks who acted before who should of push but just simply fold waiting for some action from others but purely based on the principle of it all. You should be shoving and it doesn't state anywhere if you're chip leader or 2nd in chips and <<10bb/s that you shoulden't push - so I go ahead and push my hand as it seems the "correct" way to moshman. Low and behold, for some reason I'm being called by 2nd in chip or 1st in chip stacks and seem to just lose every hand at this point and I'm out leaving 1bb/s hero players hitting the money when they should of been shoving 4 orbits previously.


I'm just unsure if his theory applies to such low limit games and because the games have changed so much since the day he wrote the sodding book.

the lab man said:

Ram maybe post a few of these hands where it's going wrong???

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I'll get on the PC shortly and post some example from my last session.

edgie212 said:

I think there are two things that are hindering your profitability right now, and the first one isn't even really hindering it...it's just that Moshman and his cronies put in a LOT more volume, and over the number of SnGs they play, the shoving moves they use are +EV in the long term - that isn't to say that they don't suffer swings and variance.

The second thing is that the 10BB rule, while fundamentally sound, is a rule meant to be broken. Sure, if it is folded to you, and the players behind are tight (assuming you are HUDing them), you might shove with any two. But if a tight 10/8 player min-raises and he has around 20BB, he may very well be trapping you...if a reg has less than 10 as well, he may be shoving light. If the cutoff raises up and he's been folding into the money, does he have you beat? Especially in multi-table SNGs where you have a modicum of information on your opponents, you should take them into account.


And when in doubt, shove.

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That was one of my thought processes - volume. Most people are putting in at least 100 games a day so could well be that. I just find my motvation drops if I load my first 10 tables up and say on average which isn't uncommon I'm actually towards the bubble stage and one of chip leads in 4/5 of the games. I then busto one after the other because the timing is just "right" to push.

As for knowing your other players, It is kind of hard to get a read on any if you're multi tabling. I see these other players who put in volume hitting out like 20 tables at once so I'm quite sure they have just as much knowledge as me in terms of if I should be pushing into somene. I'd doubt if they knew each hand of every table they was pushing into if the players are likely to stack of with them or not. Seems pot l luck most of the time.

I'm never calling a shove. As again I'm most often trying to follow the fundamentals myself and he states which is true "You need a better hand to call an all-in as opposed to shoving" So, I'd lay down any A,rag unless for some reason which doesn't seem like it recently I'm down to like 3bb/s then I'd call.

From what I understand about shoving when you have to, you HAVE to be the first in the pot.
If for instance, you're clearly in push/fold mode and someone ahead of you limps or raises you fold unless you have a monster or you know you can get the person before you to fold if you shove.
Like in your example above, when you pushed and villian turned over AQ, had this player been first in vigorish(to act on pot), if not then you could have just folded.
From what I have read, you have failed to mention that your shoves are made when no-one else has entered the pot which is how it's suppose to be done.

shinedown.45 said:

From what I understand about shoving when you have to, you HAVE to be the first in the pot.
If for instance, you're clearly in push/fold mode and someone ahead of you limps or raises you fold unless you have a monster or you know you can get the person before you to fold if you shove.
Like in your example above, when you pushed and villian turned over AQ, had this player been first in vigorish(to act on pot), if not then you could have just folded.
From what I have read, you have failed to mention that your shoves are made when no-one else has entered the pot which is how it's suppose to be done.

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I've said that I don't call if someone has raisse or pushed before me. I will always wait, often or not I'm pushing either from the SB,BB button or cutoff if there has been no action proir in an unopened pot.

i would have to see the hands but at what point does someone fold out and wait for the blinds to hit players with one or two blinds?tendency is for people to get tighter in these situations moshman book is geared to mostly 9-10 man sngs paying out top three

I have to agree with OldDog21 on this one. I don't see the logic of pushing simple because you have < 10BB. I have not personally read Moshman, but I have to believe even he would fold on the bubble if he were the 1st or 2nd chip stack and some other players were about to be blinded away. Finish ITM first. After the bubble pops, it is a different game.

I understand the Push or fold mentality when a 3xBB raise would be over half your stack, or if you only have 2 or 3 BB, then you almost have no choice with ATC.

Keep pushing with your big stack and no hand and you are bound to lose. Push only when you have to or when you have a hand you would normally raise with and I think you will be better off.

I know I hate being Bubble Boy! Any cash is better than no cash at all!

JMTalbert said:

I have to agree with OldDog21 on this one. I don't see the logic of pushing simple because you have < 10BB. I have not personally read Moshman, but I have to believe even he would fold on the bubble if he were the 1st or 2nd chip stack and some other players were about to be blinded away. Finish ITM first. After the bubble pops, it is a different game.

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It's never simply "push because you have <10bb". You have to analyze the situation at hand and make your decision using all the information available. Moshman (I'm assuming) is pointing out that, @10bb, you just don't have the chips to 2.5x/fold. He's also highlighting that many spots are +EV to shove no matter the cards you hold due to other factors. To take advantage of that stuff you have to be aware of the other factors and apply them properly. Applying them improperly will lead only to ugly spew.

Example: let's assume it's a 4 person bubble for an STT and you're a dominant chip-leader @13bb, there's a micro-stack with 2.5bb and 2 medium stacks at 4-8bb. If the micro-stack is in the BB and you're UTG you should probably fold most of your garbage. You have little FE against the micro-stack so avoid gambling with said garbage. However, if the Micro-stack just paid the blinds and is on the BTN leaving the 2 medium (4-8bb) stacks in the blinds you should probably open-shove ATC.

You have to be selective. But you're not being selective based purely on the cards you hold, you're being selective about a number of other dynamics and using all that information to generate +EV moves.

Right on the bubble, I am going to be extra cautious. If you are sitting in a strong chip position, just wait a few more hands if small stack indeed only has two BBs left. If you get AK, QQ+ then of course shove but outside of that, I can fold. (position and villains’ stack sizes also matter a lot of course) Once in the money, I can be aggressive.

I think the "10BB rule" (that's the point I start to get worried, so I know what you're talking about) doesn't apply on the bubble when there are stacks shorter than you in the game. And if there are 2, or 3, or 4 stacks smaller than you, then just hold tight. Definitely a time to get conservative, in my opinion.

EV is a great number, but it doesn't account for variance, which can be important. For instance, let's say you've got the following 2 options:

(1) If you win a coin flip, I give you $2,000,001
(2) I just give you $1,000,000

EV is going to tell you to take that first option, but...

Hang in there and good luck!