How to you strategically handle the Up and down of MTT play?

vegasjj · Jun 29, 2013

How to you strategically handle the Up and down of MTT play?

What I am trying to ask...

Well - I guess first question is - do you agree that there seems to be some extended periods of bad streak then some usually much shorter good time - and the cycle repeats?
If you agree - then the above question is more specifically:

When you are down
- do you play a lot - hoping the down will end faster?
- do you play less but same BI?
- do you play less and LOWER BI?

When you "IN THE ZONE"
- do you play a lot
- Play higher buy-ins

Or no matter what play about the same - it will all work out...

OR...????

RealityCheck123 · Jun 29, 2013

vegasjj said:
How to you strategically handle the Up and down of MTT play?

What I am trying to ask...

Well - I guess first question is - do you agree that there seems to be some extended periods of bad streak then some usually much shorter good time - and the cycle repeats?
If you agree - then the above question is more specifically:

When you are down
- do you play a lot - hoping the down will end faster?
- do you play less but same BI?
- do you play less and LOWER BI?

When you "IN THE ZONE"
- do you play a lot
- Play higher buy-ins

Or no matter what play about the same - it will all work out...

OR...????

It's actually a really good question imo, to think about it..

I have just went through(hopefully?) a huge downswing, like the biggest ever.. but this was kinda first time it was handled differently, as in I just kept playing my regular grind as long as I could keep up my best game, and what I noticed is, I really played through the downswing, and tonight it's kinda slowly turning around the DS was running about 280$ below EV(my normal buy-in is 3.50

)

well I think even if your on DS, you should still play your games, and on upswing the same thing.. maybe mix in one bigger game

also downswing could be a good time to really work on your tilt control imo...

dudemanstan · Jun 29, 2013

Maybe you should learn some more about the game if your loosing so much, and your wondering if you should stick with your strategy.
You say here "extended periods of bad streak then some usually much shorter good time - and the cycle repeats?"
When your playing the right way, then your statement here should be reversed.

Wolfpack43ACC · Jun 29, 2013

I just play, variance comes and goes it's a part of the beast. I still curse it like hell when it rears its ugly face but I always come back down to earth and just keep playing my game.

I don't tend to play higher buy ins when I'm playing well along with running good, just stay consistent and keep at what has been working. Now if I'm confident and I see a higher buy in tourney that possesses great value then yes I'll dip my toes in. Did that in the Lock $209, 2.5k last week and shipped 3rd for 1k (should have truly been 1st) so sometimes those kind of shots work out, but it's not something I would recommend on a consistent basis.

Stay within your means and practice good bankroll strategy. To answer your other question no I don't drop down in buyins for tournaments when I'm running bad or variance is catching up to me. It's always good to look bad during those stretches though and double check your math. Make sure it is variance, make sure there wasn't something different you could have done, a more optimal play maybe.

I believe the most important hands to review are the ones when you aren't winning and you're running bad because if you do your homework on those hands and you're able to say to yourself, "I did nothing wrong there. I made the right decisions, the hand just didn't work out for me in the end." it makes it a whole lot easier to deal with said variance and run bad.

vegasjj · Jun 29, 2013

dudemanstan said:
Maybe you should learn some more about the game if your loosing so much, and your wondering if you should stick with your strategy.
You say here "extended periods of bad streak then some usually much shorter good time - and the cycle repeats?"
When your playing the right way, then your statement here should be reversed.

When your playing the right way, then your statement here should be reversed
I wish I could say that, for that matter - I think even the superstars lose more games as far as number of games then the number of games they win... jut the games we/they win - they really count.
I was not talking about ROI - in case I was not clear... I'm happy with my ROI, it can always improve and I'm working on that

Sorry if I was not clear... and perhaps it is a situation you are NOT encountering - perhaps your wins and losses follow a more balanced pattern...

vegasjj · Jun 29, 2013

RealityCheck123 said:
I just kept playing my regular grind as long as I could keep up my best game,
and on upswing the same thing.. maybe mix in one bigger game .

Wolfpack43ACC said:
I don't tend to play higher buy ins when I'm playing well along with running good, just stay consistent and keep at what has been working. Now if I'm confident and I see a higher buy in tourney that possesses great value then yes I'll dip my toes in.

Stay within your means and practice good bankroll strategy. To answer your other question no I don't drop down in buyins for tournaments when I'm running bad or variance is catching up to me.

Very similar points of view. And really does sound healthy to me.
Sounds like I'm almost on the same page, maybe I need a small correction?

On upswing - I pretty much play the same - but on occasion - if it looks real good - I try something a level or two higher then what I usually play.

On downswing, I do pretty much same as you both said - except (although my bankroll would allow) I try to drop the number of games I play if the downswing seems to be too long. Usually do not go to lower buy-ins - as some devil in me gets bored and I start doing stupid things.

ChipEaterMan · Jun 29, 2013

When I'm down:
I continue playing the same way
When I'm in the zone:
I continue playing the same way

dudemanstan · Jun 30, 2013

vegasjj said:
When your playing the right way, then your statement here should be reversed
I wish I could say that, for that matter - I think even the superstars lose more games as far as number of games then the number of games they win... jut the games we/they win - they really count.
I was not talking about ROI - in case I was not clear... I'm happy with my ROI, it can always improve and I'm working on that
Sorry if I was not clear... and perhaps it is a situation you are NOT encountering - perhaps your wins and losses follow a more balanced pattern...

Thats ok. Yeah I'm doing ok,but I have my days/games. Good luck to you.

steveiam · Jul 1, 2013

Somebody said even the pros average about 1 in 4 cash's...I don't know if that's correct but it sounds about right

jsh169 · Jul 1, 2013

steveiam said:
Somebody said even the pros average about 1 in 4 cash's...I don't know if that's correct but it sounds about right

Pro's aren't looking for a cash, they are looking for a major score, min cashing doesn't do a whole lot. I would also say your number is a bit high, but even say they only scored one cash, but got a second or third, would be a lot better then 4 major non cashes.

RamdeeBen · Jul 1, 2013

When you are down in $$, if you feel you're playing correctly then you should just continue playing the same games (Assuming you have enough BR) Confidence might be low; but so long as you don't let it effect your game, it's all fine.

There's no real need to move down if you know you can beat a limit. The only time you should move down is if you're playing above your bankroll or you feel the players are better than you and your edge is small, or next to none. If you feel though; you're making mistakes then you should just stop playing all together not move down because you will just continue making bad plays and probs even more.

When you mean "in the zone" I assume you mean running hot? Again, all this is irrelevant in general. Of course you feel more confident but you shouldn't be moving up, unless you have enough for higher buy-ins. However; poker doesn't have memory, so by moving up or down doesn't mean your hot run continues or your bad run continues etc..It's all the same so if you play your A game, continue playing the games you do and the only time you should move up/down are when your bankroll dictates you should and you feel you have an edge in the higher games.

vegasjj · Jul 1, 2013

ramdeebam said:
When you are down in $$, if you feel you're playing correctly then you should just continue playing the same games (Assuming you have enough BR) Confidence might be low; but so long as you don't let it effect your game, it's all fine.

There's no real need to move down if you know you can beat a limit. The only time you should move down is if you're playing above your bankroll or you feel the players are better than you and your edge is small, or next to none. If you feel though; you're making mistakes then you should just stop playing all together not move down because you will just continue making bad plays and probs even more.

When you mean "in the zone" I assume you mean running hot? Again, all this is irrelevant in general. Of course you feel more confident but you shouldn't be moving up, unless you have enough for higher buy-ins. However; poker doesn't have memory, so by moving up or down doesn't mean your hot run continues or your bad run continues etc..It's all the same so if you play your A game, continue playing the games you do and the only time you should move up/down are when your bankroll dictates you should and you feel you have an edge in the higher games.

I really truly - like your post - it is so clear! THANKS
I was not really looking for advice, was more curious how we each handle it
but I ended-up with some real solid advice!
Thanks all for posting

GNARBURGS · Jul 9, 2013

I rule variance, variance doesnt rule me #YOLO

kukiwarrior · Jul 17, 2013

ChipEaterMan said:
When I'm down:
I continue playing the same way
When I'm in the zone:
I continue playing the same way

At that way...how many times did you come out 1st?

RegHC23 · Jul 18, 2013

Man I really can answer this question really well. I have had some days where I just want to cuss out the screen the person whoever is around me. I can tell you though every time in the past month I have made some really awesome decisions and got my money in great, but for whatever reason it just does not work out. Their is times that I have just frankly lost confidence in my game, but I let some of my friends and people that I know look at my hand history in the games and all of them say without a doubt that I am making the right decisions, but it just seems that this month I have been getting killed by flush draws, getting in and sucking out. It is the game of poker and if you have never been through the downswing then either you have been lucky or the downswing just has not found you yet. It makes you tough just like any athlete and if you have the drive to keep coming back your results will eventually pay off. Keep fighting and never stop when you are having a tough month. Keep pushing and keep understanding the game of poker is to make the right decision and let the cards hopefully forever be in your favor. Happy poker games.

Arjonius · Jul 19, 2013

I don't recall ever changing my level or amount of play based on running either good or bad. However, I do move up or down depending on how I'm playing and feeling. That said, it's at least partly an artificial distinction since running bad can affect my mood, which can in turn affect my play.

KingCurtis · Jul 19, 2013

vegasjj said:
How to you strategically handle the Up and down of MTT play?

What I am trying to ask...

Well - I guess first question is - do you agree that there seems to be some extended periods of bad streak then some usually much shorter good time - and the cycle repeats?
If you agree - then the above question is more specifically:

When you are down
- do you play a lot - hoping the down will end faster?
- do you play less but same BI?
- do you play less and LOWER BI?

When you "IN THE ZONE"
- do you play a lot
- Play higher buy-ins

Or no matter what play about the same - it will all work out...

OR...????

From my personal experience, I have always had a long period of run good followed by a short period of run bad. This was when I was playing a lot more mtts though. It is a nice repeated cycle and that flow helps me deal with your next questions...

I hardly ever drop my BI amount when I am running bad. Mainly because I play all over the place from 1$-$200 BIs. Other than that I really don't see what you mean by down? Like down as in down in money or running bad? If I was down on money then yes I would drop down in limits but running bad has nothing to do with limits...I usually just stop playing for a while or switch poker rooms which has worked out for me really well in the past!

When I'm in the zone, I tend to try and take more shots but I don't think they have ever payed off. If you are crushing a certain limit why move anyway? Maximize your profits and get as much milk out of that cow as you can! I have been really consistent at the levels between $5-$50 and never had to take too many shots to gain more money anyway!

This is a great thread and I am interested in seeing what others have to say!

Randall McMurphy · Jul 19, 2013

steveiam said:
Somebody said even the pros average about 1 in 4 cash's...I don't know if that's correct but it sounds about right

Chris ‘Moorman1’ Moorman. According to his PokerStars statistics in the course of over 3,300 games his longest non-cashing streak is 34 games (his ITM percentage is 16% and ROI percentage is 37%).

Bluntman is one of the top ranked MTT players for $1 – $10 MTTs. We can see that over 10,000 tournaments his stats are very similar to Moorman’s. His ITM is 16% (the same as Moorman’s) however his ROI is 17%.

Interestingly, none of the professional players above have an ITM above 17%. This shows juat how important final table finishes are – rather than just focusing on ITM percentages.

cotta777 · Jul 19, 2013

The hardest thing for me Is I guess - tilt,
it's seems inevitable that someone will always push or call from an unexplainable spot
you make the right play as you find out once they have hit a 3 outer river or called OOP or caught a bad 2 pair or a set.
(its almost like groundhog day) you know its going to happen and you lose alot of your stack, and you wont get a spot because everyone else is running well
and its very hard to make the right decisions and dominate (as the blinds get big)

If you can stop people playing or disprupt the flow of a game even if you can't get a big hand you can maybe take additional small pots and prevent another strong player becoming the table captain which will effect them.

I suppose what im trying to say Is just try and focus more on exploits if you aren't getting cards as those are the games you need to dig dig to get the extra scores in games you wouldnt make the money without exploitive plays with weaker holdings

Daniel72 · Jul 20, 2013

To handle the ups and downs and stretches and swings, i think in bigger numbers. I know, i only win every 6000th tournament on pokerstars, with these big fields, and i have no problem with it. I made my peace with the variance. And when you multitable, it is easier, because you aren´t focused on one statistically "meaningless" tourney.

bernotas22 · Jul 20, 2013

if you are worried about the ups and downs of tournaments don't play them

NvrBlufn · Jul 20, 2013

When I first read the title of the post I thought it was about the ups and downs of a single tournament. How to handle those swings of chips, however that is apparently not the question here.

As far as running good - Keep running. I use a certain percentage of my winnings (call it ~10%) to take shots at higher limits and satellites into much bigger tourneys so when I am running really good or on a winning streak it means there is more money to do this. I wouldn't just launch myself into the next level of BI because I don't want to risk ending my heater. I know it may take awhile to get used to the new game/players and losing just a few games makes a big difference at double or quadruple the BI that I normally would play. My normal ITM 66% at 6-max DoN; However I am comfortable with the risk at a set level of Buy In. At a $200 double or nothing I wouldn't be able to play my game yet and it is poor bankroll management. If my roll was over 4,000 I think I would be able to handle the swings, but it isn't at the moment.

As for running bad - Keep running. If you are playing at the right level you should be able to "play through the downswing" as someone else has said. It also gives you a chance to use the hand browser and see where you are going wrong. You can only lose so many games at a certain level before the analytic side kicks in and asks "What should I have done differently to maximize my chance of getting paid here?"
Find that answer and use it to get back on the horse.

bernotas22 · Jul 20, 2013

NvrBlufn said:
When I first read the title of the post I thought it was about the ups and downs of a single tournament. How to handle those swings of chips, however that is apparently not the question here.

As far as running good - Keep running. I use a certain percentage of my winnings (call it ~10%) to take shots at higher limits and satellites into much bigger tourneys so when I am running really good or on a winning streak it means there is more money to do this. I wouldn't just launch myself into the next level of BI because I don't want to risk ending my heater. I know it may take awhile to get used to the new game/players and losing just a few games makes a big difference at double or quadruple the BI that I normally would play. My normal ITM 66% at 6-max DoN; However I am comfortable with the risk at a set level of Buy In. At a $200 double or nothing I wouldn't be able to play my game yet and it is poor bankroll management. If my roll was over 4,000 I think I would be able to handle the swings, but it isn't at the moment.

As for running bad - Keep running. If you are playing at the right level you should be able to "play through the downswing" as someone else has said. It also gives you a chance to use the hand browser and see where you are going wrong. You can only lose so many games at a certain level before the analytic side kicks in and asks "What should I have done differently to maximize my chance of getting paid here?"
Find that answer and use it to get back on the horse.

do you know any tools other than just doing the math yourself to find that 10 percent of your winnings you can use to take bigger shots for example? or do you do this in your head? would be a good tool to be able to distribute your bankroll into different parts of what you want to do with it

NvrBlufn · Jul 20, 2013

bernotas22 said:
do you know any tools other than just doing the math yourself to find that 10 percent of your winnings you can use to take bigger shots for example? or do you do this in your head? would be a good tool to be able to distribute your bankroll into different parts of what you want to do with it

For determining what level I should play I try to stick to 5% of my bankroll so $5 dollar range tourneys with a BR of $100 and so on. If I was going to move up to $200 Buy-Ins I divide that by .05 to see what a comfortable roll would be there, that is how I settled on $4000.

As for the 10% -- I remember reading it somewhere recently (probably here on the forum). I am pretty loose with my bankroll mgmt and I make a lot of mistakes there. My actual percentage taking higher shots is probably closer to 20%. I mentally take note of what I am winning and take shots when they seem to provide good EV.

RegHC23 · Jul 25, 2013

don't worry about the tilt it all happens. Keep playing analyzing hands and asking people on this site on what they would do in different situations., Take their advice and use it to help you out. Sometimes people will get on to you for making a bad decision, but they are doing it because they do not want you to throw away your money. There is so much money out there to make, why not use this forum to help you out. I have used it and it has worked out perfectly for me

How to you strategically handle the Up and down of MTT play?

vegasjj

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