How should I play in this situation?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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I think my biggest problem is how I play once I make it deep into a tourney. This situation illustrates well the sort of things that can happen.

So its a 12 player 2 table SNG with top 4 cashing out. We are down to 4.

I have 3500 chips, the chip leader is sitting at around 6500 chips, one player has 1200 and the last one has just 200 left. The blinds are 50/100.

The chip leader has been playing very losely and I have so far folded even decent cards to his raises as I am waiting to atleast get into the top 3 before taking him on.

But it happens, he makes a min raise UTG and I call with 99 on the BB. The flop comes 852 with 2 diamonds. I immediately bet 70% of the pot as I want to end the hand there but he re-raises me. Now I know I have the best hand and I shove all-in and he calls with KT of diamonds. Turns out I wasnt really ahead even though I had the best hand. And given his chip count he didnt do much wrong there.

But the problem is if I had checked and if he had kept raising me big what would I do? He only made the flush on the river and the turn was another under card to my pair. I see this in 2 ways,

1. If I win this pot I am in prime position to win the tourney and pretty much guaranteed 2nd place. The first position wins 100% more than the second place in this particular SNG.

2. However I was already in very good position to come 2nd and the blinds were still quite comfortable so there was no urgency.

Would you say its reasonable that I just give up on the hand after the flop? Or even before the flop? I know the best play here is probably check/call but I really dont think he would have gone for small value bets the way he was playing.
 
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Dee Dee

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Check calling,like you said, to try to get a cheap showdown might be a wiser play since you are on the bubble and the guy with 2 blinds left is probably going to bust soon. I would consider just folding if he makes it too expensive but if this was 3 handed and I was in the money I'd be more comfortable committing to the hand.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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Check calling,like you said, to try to get a cheap showdown might be a wiser play since you are on the bubble and the guy with 2 blinds left is probably going to bust soon. I would consider just folding if he makes it too expensive but if this was 3 handed and I was in the money I'd be more comfortable committing to the hand.
I was sort of in the money, the 4th place breaks even and 3rd place doesnt really get much more. Its the top 2 that make the really good return in this one.
 
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matiusaa

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Well, I think that your decition should depend on the paying structure to the 3rd and 2nd place. I mean you will risk ending 4th and if you win you won't have 1st place for sure, so maybe a fold would have been the correct thing, but I insist it depends. The only problem is that you could be facing an bigger pp or a stright draw. I wouldn't blame you if you called him, nor if you folded, there are pretty good reasons for both of them. Maybe I would wait till the 2bb player busts, to ensure at least a 3rd place, but that would depend on the paying strucure
 
Dee Dee

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I see, I missed the bit about 4 getting paid, in that case I can't see anything wrong with how you played it.
 
B

Bomysp

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I think that it can be solved by ICM. Always look for maximizing your profits, in this situation it is for me fold/shove movement. If you would have shoved, I dot think he wouldn´t call you with KTs. Also as said before, we must conside rpayout structure and if its worth the risk taken. Good luck at tables!
 
PurgatoryD

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I agree with those saying this is a fold/shove moment preflop. With top two positions paying much more, and with you having 3500 chips, you could have out waited 1200 and 200. But if you didn't want to wait, then shove. An aggressive player like that min raising is just trying to take the blinds or looking to see if he can make a better hand. So don't let him see the flop.
 
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kmichaels

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with those guys you have to take a shot or simply fold. Other plays only will make you lose chips, which happened to you in that situation. So you should shove of folded early. Limp with those fellas is the worst thing you can do.
 
Arjonius

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I'd like to know the reasons why those people who think it's a shove or fold situation with 35 BB have reached this conclusion.
 
PurgatoryD

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I'd like to know the reasons why those people who think it's a shove or fold situation with 35 BB have reached this conclusion.

I'm one of those people, so I'll give it a shot.

For me personally, I fold. There are just too many ways 99 can get me into trouble. I'm going to make a lot more money by outwaiting the two smaller stacks, so that's exactly what I'm going to do.

For someone who does not want to fold, however, I did advise shove instead of call or raise. With someone who has a large range like that, I figured that we could get him to fold. Even though we have 35 BB, if we call or raise such that he calls (I'm assuming he will call most raises here), I don't see many flops that help us. So I feel like unless I can steal here, I'm just throwing chips away because I don't have a post flop game for this situation (i.e. his range is too large and my hand is too weak).

That said, you have opened my eyes to one more option: set mining. Just call him hoping for a set. If you get it, great. If not, fold. The more I think about it, this may in fact be the best option. Ironically, even catching a set here is death. So I think you've got to go for the real money and that's a fold right from the start.

I see no need to play this hand, so my advice really should have just been fold. So there, updated advice! :)

Out of curiosity, how do you think he should have played it?
 
Poker Orifice

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call pre, check/call flop, re-evaluate turn. (I'm not donking on the flop).
 
dmorris68

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I agree that shoving 35BB here is not wise. 35BB still gives you plenty of stack to play with and still get away with more than the 2 tiny stacks.

Flatting OOP to a min-raising bigstack bully is questionable. I'd probably be 3betting here to narrow his range, but then I'm an aggrotard. OTOH you're getting good implied odds to set mine here so a call isn't terrible either. The problem here is that you seemed to have not realized you didn't flop your set. ;)

You have an overpair to the flop but just barely. If you had 3bet pre and villain calls/raises, then comes over your flop bet, you really have to consider his range here. I'm with PO in thinking a c/c is in order, followed by a reval on the turn.

Donk betting also triggers an over-the-top reaction (literally and figuratively, lol) from many players. Many view it as a sign of weakness, because it's so popular with bad players trying to buy the pot when they miss the flop. So doing it to "end the hand right there" is generally a bad idea -- be prepared to play a big pot against a wide range when you come out donking, especially if you've been doing it often. It's a great idea to donk when you have a monster and *know* villain will spew in response, but otherwise it's usually a leak that leads to playing bloated pots with mediocre hands. Like here.
 
davygold78

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i agree with joe : call pre, check/call flop, re-evaluate turn. (I'm not donking on the flop).
 
lulu pk

lulu pk

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Go all in pre flop whit 99 don't call the bet of (loose player whit the big stack).
 
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lilnewtdog

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check call check call with lose players late in game.
 
Abedin120

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You didn't have to go all-in after his re-raise, you only had to call, and after that you had to play the rest of the hand like you say check/call, because for my opinion 99s are not very strong cards for going all-in and in many cases in hands like this the opponents can have better top pair than yours 99s.
You can go all-in in situations like this only if you have more chips than your opponent. In other cases you have to play check/call because it's to risk to lose good cash at the end when some of your opponent have only 200 chips.
 
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Kauwidinoc

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well done i can not better explain it. I like a call or even a fold here too
 
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